Me: Hi! Thanks for your kind words, and for your insights during the conversation. It's a little surprising to see the kinds of opposition rise up for simply discussing a less-popular part of God's revelation. But if you think the God's hate gets peoples' hackles up, you should start talking about the fear of the Lord being real fear!
My journey is exactly opposite from yours. I came from conservative Baptist circles to the charismatic ones. I am looking for a move of God, and I believe in the manifest power of the Holy Spirit in these times.
I'd be interested to know what happened to you. I know I have a tendency to get discouraged at times, but I must hold fast to what I know God has said. Maybe something discouraged you?
Anyway, it's good to connect with you.
T.N.: Yes, I think opposition rises up because people take Scripture out of context, and don't read all of it to begin with...
Like you, I do believe in God's manifest power. However, I believe there's a lot of "forcing" going on by many people. I've been in the charismatic circles for 20+ years, and it never was a good fit for me, even when I tried to convince myself that it was. This goes way beyond discouragement - it has to do with understanding the truth of what Scripture actually says vs. our interpretation/application of it. That goes DEEP to even my understanding of who God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is.... Honestly, I feel duped by many many people, and even the church to some degree. And yet, I am ultimately responsible for what I've allowed. The one thing that's never happened, though, is that I've never been disillusioned with God Himself - only Christians, only methodology & theology. I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago that gets into it a bit - that may help you understand a bit more...
Me: Is it the "new thing" post, where you questioned what new thing God could be doing, as if the Bible wasn't complete?
T.N .: yes. I've got more stuff farther back, but that's the latest. Deleted most of what I've said because I got jumped for it. Very unpopular to say what I actually think.
Remember, this kind of thing did a lot of damage to me over the years (I let it happen), so it's frustrated me to have my friends get so offended by it.. I've found it's easier to just say nothing most of the time.
Me: The human mind does not like cognitive dissonance. It's easier to dismiss the source rather than consider an idea that contradicts a long-held position.
Do you have a blog? I put all my thoughts and conversations/debates on my blog (kind of like a journal).
T.N.: In the last couple of years I've started reading about the history of the church, different theologies, etc. Finding that I have very little patience for most modern "pastors" - especially the "relevent" ones.
No blog - but I've thought about it
T.N.: I'm not sure what you mean?
Me: Mean about what?
T.N.: Cognitive dissonance and dismissal.
Me: Haha! Sorry. Cognitive dissonance is the attempt to maintain what you believe even when it is clear that it is false. So rather than let go of the false belief, the source of the correct information is disregarded.
It's a defense mechanism to avoid change.
T.N.: Ahhhh, like dismissing the Scriptures that contradict a warm-fuzzy belief about God's nature, for example?
Me: Yes, exactly.
Me: Here's my blog. http://mountainmantrails.blogspot.com/
T.N.: Thanks - I'll check it out
T.N.: How do you regard yourself? I mean, what kind of Christian are you?
I consider myself newly Reformed. Not exactly sure which vein, just yet. Some points of Calvinism I totally agree with, others, I'm not sure. I just know that disassociating with charismata has been the best thing I've ever done in my walk as a Christian... Still figuring out what it all means and how it all works. Those long held beliefs are hard to just shake off. Figuring out what of it was gold, what was trash. So far, most of it was trash, unfortunately
Me: I am a background guy. I support the "presentable" parts of the Body. My calling is to explore and facilitate worship, which is the purpose for which we were created. I regard myself as an unofficial elder, and am accoustomed to having the pastor's ear. I am an "underground' revolutionary in the sense that I move against that which is not of the Holy Spirit, even when it is a long standing part of a church.
T.N.: When I read things like what E.J. writes, it makes me cringe. It's said so happily, so optimisically, and I love his heart, but it is very unbalanced and often unwise.
I am not sure how to respond, you know? My comments are often met with disregard, so I try to keep things to myself. Then I have to "hide" people because they just frustrate me, which is sad...
So how do you know what is against the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit and "movement" things are my sticking points - so many people take too much liberty with these.
Me: You don't believe in the Trinity?
T.N.: Of course I do - Nicene Creed all the way
Me: Sorry. I've ran across some people who think the Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Scriptures. ;)
T.N.: Ha! I know what you mean, though.
Me: Truth is harder and harder to find in the church. That's why I rely on the Scripture, and for the Holy Spirit to help me understand it.
T.N.: Do you believe that God gives personal revelation beyond what's been revealed in Scripture? I mean, does He say MORE than what's already been said? Beyond confirmation of what's in there, I mean. New stuff?
Me: Everything we know about God is due to personal revelation. It is by His mercy He allowed me into His grace. I would know nothing about God except by Him letting me see.
T.N.: And that was revealed to you through Scripture?
Even the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim personal revelation
Me: We think that we become Christians because we figured it out, or studied, or we were persuaded. But we come to God because He unveiled our eyes. He revealed Himself and we believed.
T.N.: Yes - a very Martin Luther thing to say! :0)
Me: 1Co. 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
T.N.: We give ourselves too much credit - think that WE are the reason we're saved - because WE chose Him. And yet, we are born dead in our sins. Dead men can do nothing - not even choose God.
Again, this comes to Election and predestination, ultimately.
Me: 1Co. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
T.N.: yes. I have enjoyed our conversation - need to get going for work today
T.N.: Thanks - I'll check it out
T.N.: How do you regard yourself? I mean, what kind of Christian are you?
I consider myself newly Reformed. Not exactly sure which vein, just yet. Some points of Calvinism I totally agree with, others, I'm not sure. I just know that disassociating with charismata has been the best thing I've ever done in my walk as a Christian... Still figuring out what it all means and how it all works. Those long held beliefs are hard to just shake off. Figuring out what of it was gold, what was trash. So far, most of it was trash, unfortunately
Me: I am a background guy. I support the "presentable" parts of the Body. My calling is to explore and facilitate worship, which is the purpose for which we were created. I regard myself as an unofficial elder, and am accoustomed to having the pastor's ear. I am an "underground' revolutionary in the sense that I move against that which is not of the Holy Spirit, even when it is a long standing part of a church.
T.N.: When I read things like what E.J. writes, it makes me cringe. It's said so happily, so optimisically, and I love his heart, but it is very unbalanced and often unwise.
I am not sure how to respond, you know? My comments are often met with disregard, so I try to keep things to myself. Then I have to "hide" people because they just frustrate me, which is sad...
So how do you know what is against the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit and "movement" things are my sticking points - so many people take too much liberty with these.
Me: You don't believe in the Trinity?
T.N.: Of course I do - Nicene Creed all the way
Me: Sorry. I've ran across some people who think the Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Scriptures. ;)
T.N.: Ha! I know what you mean, though.
Me: Truth is harder and harder to find in the church. That's why I rely on the Scripture, and for the Holy Spirit to help me understand it.
T.N.: Do you believe that God gives personal revelation beyond what's been revealed in Scripture? I mean, does He say MORE than what's already been said? Beyond confirmation of what's in there, I mean. New stuff?
Me: Everything we know about God is due to personal revelation. It is by His mercy He allowed me into His grace. I would know nothing about God except by Him letting me see.
T.N.: And that was revealed to you through Scripture?
Even the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim personal revelation
Me: We think that we become Christians because we figured it out, or studied, or we were persuaded. But we come to God because He unveiled our eyes. He revealed Himself and we believed.
T.N.: Yes - a very Martin Luther thing to say! :0)
Me: 1Co. 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
T.N.: We give ourselves too much credit - think that WE are the reason we're saved - because WE chose Him. And yet, we are born dead in our sins. Dead men can do nothing - not even choose God.
Again, this comes to Election and predestination, ultimately.
Me: 1Co. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
T.N.: yes. I have enjoyed our conversation - need to get going for work today
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