Can anyone point a scripture that says we don't deserve God's love, or that we are unlovable, or something along those lines?
K.T.: Psalm 5:5, 45:7, 101:3, 119:104 & Proverbs 8:13. This will give you a start. These say that God hates the wicked. Romans 1 will follow up on this for you too. Also Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau.
L.J.: Depends on who you mean when you say, "we"........
Me: K.T., I had a long discussion with some christians months ago, where I was making that very case - God does hate certain people. But that's a different topic. Because God does hate some people doesn't mean that they don't deserve his love. http://mountainmantrails.blogspot.com/2012/05/god-loves-everyone-fb-conversation.html
Me: "we" as in humanity.
K.L.:I can find many verses where God hates wickedness but none where the Bible says His creation is unloveable!
Hate the sin, love the sinner
K.T.: The scriptures are very clear on God's hatred for sin and the sinner (Rom 9:13). We are asked to love one another because we're not God and don't know who are his and who aren't. There is no man that deserves God's love. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No man deserves or earns the love of God. All are worthy only of eternal damnation, but God in his grace and mercy chose to love, not because of man, but because he is love. For having God reveal himself to us and giving us the gift of faith we must be forever grateful. Without his love we'd never believe in Jesus
L.J.: The bible is pretty clear that prior to Christ, man abides under wrath. However, in Christ we are completely removed from the wrath of God and imputed the righteousness of Christ. All of mankind is the object of the intent of God's redemption manifest in Christ, but not everyone abides in it.....
Me: K.T., I've heard every one of those statements from the pulpit sunday after sunday year after year. None of them as of yet have a scripture that you can point to and say, "See, this scripture says we don't deserve God's love." I didn't say we don't sin and fall short of God's glory or that we can earn God's love. All of those don't address the question. The question is, what scripture tells us that we don't deserve God's love?
Me: L.J., true on all counts.
K.T.: The way you are stating things, "we" cannot mean humanity as there are basically two kinds of people. Those who believe and those who don't. Those who are of the seed of the woman or the seed of the serpent. God loves his people whom he made righteous. God doesn't love the wicked who refuse to believe. Your question cannot be answered if your "we" refers to humanity in general.
L.J.: I appreciate your thoughts, K.T., but there is a real theological hurdle with what you said in light of John 3:16. The word "world", kosmos in the Greek, referring to the world including it's inhabitants, is the object of God's affections. Those who don't perish are differentiated by belief, not by whether they are loved by God.....
Me: Thanks for your comments, everyone. I love it when we can get a good discussion going amongst wise and godly men.
Gotta make one last try, K.T.. Once again, you are correct, but the issue remains. Yes, God does not love the wicked. But the question... are they undeserving of His love?
L.J.: Rich, interesting question. Just a philosophical thought....... Did God create something in His own image and likeness, that is not deserving of His love? I am hard pressed to believe that God feels that mosquitoes are deserving of His love, but they were not created in "the image of God".
Me: L.J., what I'm grappling with comes down to what I would consider false teaching that results from taking biblical truth to the extreme. I think we mistake our low estate (Psalm 136.23) with how God ought to react to us. I don't have the answer, but I'm gaining great insight from you all.
K.T.: No man, not one, is deserving of God's love by himself. Only with faith in Jesus Christ is man worthy of God's love. John 3:16 must also be read in the light of Rom 8:18-25 which reminds us of the headship principle. When Adam sinned all men died because he's the head of creation. Rom 8 tells us that the "sons of God (believers) are the head of creation and the world is saved through them, for God so loved the cosmos(world) that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not sent his Son into the world(cosmos) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Me: The fact that we do not have the ability to present ourselves with merit before God is the other side of the equation. I quite agree with you on that part. But it is God who imparts worth to us, worth which pre-exists our faith. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) Our act of faith is not the lynchpin that makes us deserving. Our faith makes us aware of what we did not know before.
L.J.: YES!!
K.T.: It's not our faith that makes us worthy, but the blood of Jesus Christ. Our faith is a gift from God for which we must indeed be very thankful or we'd never believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to redeem us back to God.
Me: Yeah, baby. That'd be truth.
K.T.: Psalm 5:5, 45:7, 101:3, 119:104 & Proverbs 8:13. This will give you a start. These say that God hates the wicked. Romans 1 will follow up on this for you too. Also Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau.
L.J.: Depends on who you mean when you say, "we"........
Me: K.T., I had a long discussion with some christians months ago, where I was making that very case - God does hate certain people. But that's a different topic. Because God does hate some people doesn't mean that they don't deserve his love. http://mountainmantrails.blogspot.com/2012/05/god-loves-everyone-fb-conversation.html
Me: "we" as in humanity.
K.L.:I can find many verses where God hates wickedness but none where the Bible says His creation is unloveable!
Hate the sin, love the sinner
K.T.: The scriptures are very clear on God's hatred for sin and the sinner (Rom 9:13). We are asked to love one another because we're not God and don't know who are his and who aren't. There is no man that deserves God's love. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No man deserves or earns the love of God. All are worthy only of eternal damnation, but God in his grace and mercy chose to love, not because of man, but because he is love. For having God reveal himself to us and giving us the gift of faith we must be forever grateful. Without his love we'd never believe in Jesus
L.J.: The bible is pretty clear that prior to Christ, man abides under wrath. However, in Christ we are completely removed from the wrath of God and imputed the righteousness of Christ. All of mankind is the object of the intent of God's redemption manifest in Christ, but not everyone abides in it.....
Me: K.T., I've heard every one of those statements from the pulpit sunday after sunday year after year. None of them as of yet have a scripture that you can point to and say, "See, this scripture says we don't deserve God's love." I didn't say we don't sin and fall short of God's glory or that we can earn God's love. All of those don't address the question. The question is, what scripture tells us that we don't deserve God's love?
Me: L.J., true on all counts.
K.T.: The way you are stating things, "we" cannot mean humanity as there are basically two kinds of people. Those who believe and those who don't. Those who are of the seed of the woman or the seed of the serpent. God loves his people whom he made righteous. God doesn't love the wicked who refuse to believe. Your question cannot be answered if your "we" refers to humanity in general.
L.J.: I appreciate your thoughts, K.T., but there is a real theological hurdle with what you said in light of John 3:16. The word "world", kosmos in the Greek, referring to the world including it's inhabitants, is the object of God's affections. Those who don't perish are differentiated by belief, not by whether they are loved by God.....
Me: Thanks for your comments, everyone. I love it when we can get a good discussion going amongst wise and godly men.
Gotta make one last try, K.T.. Once again, you are correct, but the issue remains. Yes, God does not love the wicked. But the question... are they undeserving of His love?
L.J.: Rich, interesting question. Just a philosophical thought....... Did God create something in His own image and likeness, that is not deserving of His love? I am hard pressed to believe that God feels that mosquitoes are deserving of His love, but they were not created in "the image of God".
Me: L.J., what I'm grappling with comes down to what I would consider false teaching that results from taking biblical truth to the extreme. I think we mistake our low estate (Psalm 136.23) with how God ought to react to us. I don't have the answer, but I'm gaining great insight from you all.
K.T.: No man, not one, is deserving of God's love by himself. Only with faith in Jesus Christ is man worthy of God's love. John 3:16 must also be read in the light of Rom 8:18-25 which reminds us of the headship principle. When Adam sinned all men died because he's the head of creation. Rom 8 tells us that the "sons of God (believers) are the head of creation and the world is saved through them, for God so loved the cosmos(world) that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not sent his Son into the world(cosmos) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Me: The fact that we do not have the ability to present ourselves with merit before God is the other side of the equation. I quite agree with you on that part. But it is God who imparts worth to us, worth which pre-exists our faith. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) Our act of faith is not the lynchpin that makes us deserving. Our faith makes us aware of what we did not know before.
L.J.: YES!!
K.T.: It's not our faith that makes us worthy, but the blood of Jesus Christ. Our faith is a gift from God for which we must indeed be very thankful or we'd never believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to redeem us back to God.
Me: Yeah, baby. That'd be truth.
I feel like this is one of the biggest lies among Christians.. to believe we are shitty beings, unworthy of anything good.
ReplyDeleteare there not two definitions of "deserving"? one would be "having earned something", the other "being worthy of", a.k.a. being valuable.
there are many many verses that all lead to this conclusion: 1. we have not earned God's love. there's no way we could, because we're all stuck in sin. we cannot make ourselves perfect, or righteous.
but underneath all that:
2. we are very valuable, and in this sense definitely deserve His love. He made us after all!!
please read Romans 7:14-25.
and It's like this: God made us, and we were "very good". "fearfully and wonderfully made". THIS IS WHO YOU ARE. then sin covered us in imperfection, and because of our imperfect state, there's no way we can save ourselves from our imperfection. But God LOVES us because He can still see through the ugliness and know what's underneath. He knows our worth, and He thinks we're awesome. in fact He thinks we're worth dying for!
look, we must not get arrogant and prideful. but the devil is trying to take our confidence and identity, and we must not let him.
Let yourself be redeemed by God! As you let Him perfect you, you'll become more and more of how He made you to be, and all for His glory! Even though you're not yet in the finished state of perfection, it is already your identity (through Christ), and you may be confident in knowing this is who He made you to be. don't let sin be your identity!!
see also Luke 12:6-7, Luke 12:22-24, Luke 12:32, Isaiah 62:5, Zephaniah 3:17, Zechariah 2:8, John 10:11-13, John 15:13, Isaiah 49:15-16, Exodus 19:5
Interesting thoughts, Anne. Well Done.
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing them, and my God bless you richly with his Holy Spirit.
Each person deserves eternal punishment in hell (spiritual death) for their sins (Romans 6:23 and Revelation 20:13-15). This is what we have earned (our wages for ingratitude and making ourselves to be god ie. self-centeredness) - punishment.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, anonymous. However, what we deserve for our sins is a separate issue from God's love.
ReplyDelete