D.G.: So not only have there always been taxes other than income taxes, but state income taxes long predate Federal ones. cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_income_tax#History. So even if you interpret "kept all of their earnings" to refer only to income tax, the first sentence is still false.
Me: I'm sorry, I really don't get your point.
D.G.: The picture says: "Up until 1913, Americans kept all of their earnings", clearly referring to the 16th Amendment, which allowed for a Federal Income Tax. Since there were state income taxes long before 1913, that statement is false. That's my only point.
Me: There is a large difference between what the feds do and what the states do. The whole of conservative thought has to do with the enumerated powers granted to the federal government by the constitution, since all other powers are left to the states or to the people. Therefore, opposition to the 16th amendment is considered and logical.
D.G.: Didn't say it 's not. :) Just said that the statement is false.
Me: In the context of limited federal powers, it's true.
D.G.: It doesn't say anything about the Federal Government. It just says "all of their earnings."
Me: Again, context. A list of all the things the federal govt is doing follows that sentence. None of them needed an income tax before. This is hardly debatable, so what is it that you're trying to establish?
D.G.: I'm trying to establish that this picture is demagogic and misleading. :)
Me: Make your case.
Me: This post is all about what the nation did before the federal income tax. What the states did is not relevant.
D.G.: So Rich, I can't read your mind. And if I'm taking this thread too far away from what you wanted to discuss, I apologize and I'll depart the thread.
What I can read is the picture you posted. It says that "schools, colleges, roads, vast railroads, streets, subways, the Army, the Navy and the Marine Corps" were built without taking money from Americans' earnings.
In the period mentioned, schools, colleges, roads, streets, and subways were all paid for by the states. (To a large extent they still are, but I don't know the proportions off-hand.) If you want to argue that the full responsibility for those things should revert to the states, then fine. But you can't claim that these things were built without taking from Americans' earnings.
S.W.: Well, to start with, in 1913 our army ranked something like 15th in the world...we didn't have enough trained troops for Cuba and had to take volunteers and our navy, while impressive to the common people, was outdated and of mixed technology, far behind European models...not entirely our fault, as all navies had mixed fleets... but when they finally arrived in England four years later they had a great rate of fire but less than 10% accuracy. Brass pins on watertight doors were polished to the point they did not seal anymore. Officers threw training ammo overboard to keep from blistering the paint. Back home, working conditions were abysmal and the open pollution was incredible. Robber barons were raping the west for natural resources and rural poverty was rampant. Not taking sides here, but it's too easy to smooth over history like cheap frosting : )
Me: *Sigh* I give up.
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