The Fiscal Cliff - FB conversation

FB friend L.B. posted this:

Did you ever hear of an abused woman getting the crap beat out of her and then thanking her husband for doing it? I think thats a good description of us, "The useful idiots." The so called "Fiscal cliff is a man made crisis" manufactured by the Obama team to play us for idiots, and him coming out of it like a savior. If you go back a little over a year ago, Obama created the congressional super committee to solve the fiscal cliff of that time. The incentive put in place to encourage them to come up with a solution is what we are now calling the "fiscal cliff". Obama is no idiot and he knows that a tax increase on the rich is only a drop in the bucket of what he wants, his real agenda is to increase taxes on everybody. This way he gets to preside over one of the biggest tax increases in history and look like a hero doing it. Remember this, "Crisis, reaction, solution." That is the formula they used to create this so called "fiscal cliff". So what happens if we go over it; you get the shaft and our military is severely weakened.

Me: The republicans are wholly complicit in this mess. They think that going over the cliff at 50 mph is better than going over it at 90 mph like the dems want to do . We're still gonna crash...

D.R.: His real agenda is to raise the dept ceiling limit by 1.7 trillion dollars so they can spend more money we dont have.....

M.S.: You cannot have two multi-trillion dollar wars and then refuse to raise taxes. Tell me who is truly "asleep..." And as for the debt ceiling, how much more expensive is debt now that the child-like GOP caused our credit rating to fall? It goes like this: if you have bills to pay, you pay those bills, and you pay them on time. You do not hold off on paying the mortgage to teach your family a lesson. What happened with the debt ceiling is beyond absurd and reckless.

Me: Tax increases have failed to reduce the debt every time they've been tried. Reducing spending has rarely, if ever, been tried. 40% of government spending is borrowed money. Clearly paying the mortgage is not a priority in D.C..

J.L.: I'd rather fall of the fiscal cliff then let Rich Bullies run America! Just because you're rich doesn't give you the right to pay a smaller percentage in taxes then me! No More Breaks Richie Rich! You are not entitled!!!!!- ( one of my old posts, thought it fit as another view point. Not calling any of you rich, because I don't know your finances personally.)

Me: Unfortunately, myths get perpetuated and eventually become "fact." Rarely does anyone go to the source to check these myths. The rich do not pay a smaller income tax rate. Just that simple.

And, it's not an either/or situation. It's not a choice between the fiscal cliff and the rich running America. In fact, we do not have this choice. We picked our idiot leaders and they make the choice, which will lead us over the cliff either way.

M.S.: Rich: A mortgage is "borrowed money" by definition. Debt in and of itself is not evil. It just needs to be kept down to a sustainable level. Raising the top rates AND capping exemptions to some some degree simply must be part of the equation. It is also a myth that entrepreneurs avoid making money because of taxes.
I think everyone agrees that spending and waste need to be reduced. Of course there is disagreement on where exactly that tightening should happen.
As far as our "idiot leaders" go... I cannot imagine the USA would be better off if you, Lockley, or Glenn were in charge. Just saying.

Me: ? The US does not have a "mortgage." A mortgage has real property that secures it, it has an amortation schedule which is followed exactly, and the debt is gradually retired over the term of the loan. The US debt is nothing at all like a mortgage.

I made no assertion about entrepreneurs.

Perhaps you could confine your remarks to the topic at hand. Your snarky insults have no place here.



M.S.: Ah yes... I forgot this space is reserved for snark-free, wacko conspiracy theories and anti-Obama rants.

Congress should pass the sub-$250K extension, which people of ALL tax brackets will enjoy. Do you disagree? I see a lot of complaining here, and no solutions.

Me: Sir, you insulted me personally, your attempt to deflect notwithstanding. You may apologize or remain an asshole. You choose.

M.S.: You have one thing correct, Sir: I can be a bit of an asshole. I like to think it goes with the spine. However, I am making points which you choose to ignore.
Where exactly did I insult you? By implying you would not make a better leader than those in office presently? Did I somehow insult you personally more than you (or others here) have insulted our elected officials?
Perhaps you all should stop dishing out what you cannot take.

Me: Implying? It was a direct statement, something of which you cannot know because you have never met me. It was a gratuitous personal attack irrelevant to the discussion. I will be happy to answer your points when you demonstrate the ability to not denigrate your interlocutors.

Me: I have "dished out" nothing. Once again you attempt to deflect, this time by accusing me of engaging in similar behavior in order to justify yours. Try again.

M.S.: We picked our idiot leaders..." sounds a little dish-y to me. Have you met these idiot leaders personally? Where exactly does this "denigration-free" zone begin? Once again... all complaints, no solutions.

M.S.: I'll add: I suppose you think comparing our President to a abuser of women is not denigrating at all. Do I have that right?

Me: Let me see if I can make it clear. I insulted nameless leaders. You insulted specific people. including me, in the course of dialoguing with me. I was making a point similar to yours about the "child-like GOP." But you followed by making it personal. Do you see the difference?

Me: I made no point about abusers of women. Again, you are attempting to deflect the issue and justify your actions by pointing to the behavior of others. That doesn't wash.

L.B.: I made the point about us being like abused women who thank their man for the abuse. From what I see, Obama is running circles around the Republicans and they are like sheep being led down the road to slaughter (not literal). He is operating on a higher level and has them fighting a straw man, his real goal is to drop a tax hike on fools who believe the rhetoric, which means all of us. It has been the plan all along. There has never been a tax that democrats don't love. And yes, my friend Marshal will be the "useful idiot" they are counting on to making excuses for their actions.

L.B.: Not literally calling you an idiot M.S., just using as a rhetorical example

M.S.: I think his "real goal" is to reduce the deficit to a sustainable level with a thoughtful combination of reduced spending and revenue increases. The GOP will continue with their only real goal: denying Obama a third term.

And Rich: if you find it insulting that I don't think you would do a better job than our current leaders, it's on you for holding them in such low regard. I could have said you'd do a WORSE job, but I did not. You might do JUST AS GOOD a job as our elected leaders. Does that make you feel any better? ('cause it's all about how Rich feels...)

Me: It's all about avoiding the issues and deflecting the conversation.

M.S.: Oh Lord. Rich, you cannot SEE the conversation for your selfish insistence on remaining butt-hurt by a non-insult. You're acting as though I said you were a "useful idiot" or something.

You didn't even notice that this thread started with an analogy to abuse... because all you can focus on is how terribly I insulted you. (I may not have ever met you, but I can see how you would fit right in with the current GOP congressional caucus.)

How's about this: you WOULD make a better leader than Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Rand Paul and Michele Bachmann combined. You would be a better vice president than Sarah Palin.

So far you have posted six comments that have had NOTHING to do with the conversation, and everything to do with you feeling personally insulted. I think *you* owe *me* an apology for saying I deflect, Mr. Deflector Man.

L.B.: Its really not a republican vs democrat issue. What we are seeing is the intentional strategic plan of the NWO to crash the US economy. Marshall your apology that he is trying to reduce the deficit to a sustainable level is laughable. Are you aware that on September 9th the Federal Reserve initiated QE3 and 4 and are now printing gross amounts of dollars out of thin air that are going directly to the "To big to fail banking system" and into the pockets of the super elite? The banking system is on thin ice and it won't take much for the whole system to come crashing down. Mark my word!

Me: It's like wrestling with a greased pig.

S.G.: Guess I'm even a little more radical. I think we should kick out all of our elected officials, Get rid of this current 2 party system, & start over with all new leaders who are willing to cut their own lifetime pay for the sake of the people of this country. We need to elect some new people with common sense & good will towards Americans if we can find any. You don't spend $ you don't have. You don't up taxes. You cut spending & increase out-put. Every system (education, corrections, banks) with anything to do with the federal government needs to be re-done to eliminate waste & corruption. No one ever mentions the problem of Inflation! Solve the inflation problem. Double the reps & cut their pay in half! or even give this current leadership a deadline to get it done or get out! Stop lifetime pay!!! We are like 'abused women' who are too afraid to stand up to our big fat greedy government.