Food for thought... excuse the Pun, I thought it was Punny!
C.C.: A little bias, There are legitimate need for food stamps as well as food banks. You should read up on Social Justice in a Christian context.
R.E.: But government programs are good if they aren't abused or they don't become dependent on them instead of use them while you are down on your luck. The old hand up instead of a hand out.
C.C.: True, There is some abuse, but Republicans seem to want to scrap the safety nets which is BS. They are despicable. Always wanting to balance their spending on the backs of the poor. A loaf of bread costs a rich man the same as a poor man. We always will have people who for whatever reason are unable to work. The solution is not to let them starve.
Me: Forcing some people to pay for others, no matter how needy, is abuse.
M.S.: Rich, would you not help out your neighbor if they were in need? Would you receive help from your neighbor if you were in need? We are all in this (life) together and everyone has the same basic needs, and for some, those needs are not being met. It is our duty as good human beings to assist those less fortunate.
Me: Agreed, M.S.. However, you have described something different. There is nothing compassionate about a government who by the use of force extracts money from some people and redistributes it to others. In fact, that is the opposite of compassion, because the government inserts itself into my compassion transaction, and chooses for me the time, place, and kind of exchange that will occur.
By way of illustration, if a person approaches you on the street and robs you, then gives the money to a poor person, is that compassionate? No, it's theft. If a group of people get together and vote to take money from you and then give it to the poor, is that compassion? No, that is also theft. A majority vote does not make theft moral or legitimate.
M.S.: Although I see your concern, most of the "1%" aren't spreading their wealth in compassionate ways or in sums that people are comfortable with. That is why there is a mandated "donation" in the form of tax. It's based under the assumption that people are greedy, and sadly, most people are.
R.E.: The rich in this country does a lot charity than the poor does look at ever foundation that help the poor and sick were generally started by the wealthy
M.S.: Of course, but that's still not most of the rich, and of course the poor can't start massive organizations that require tons of funding. I'm not saying nobody donates. Just that most people need a bit of a push in the right direction.
R.E.: The point of the posting is by making people dependent on Government hand out you weaken the human spirit.
M.S.: I agree with that. I think a better system needs to be in place
R.E.: I agree more check and balances. These need to be tempory help for most.
C.C.: R.E., the posting is meant to be an attack on The SNAP program. Unfortunately there are some of us who would like to go back to the good old 1930 depression days before Social programs and Social Security. Most of the people who feel that way have never missed a meal and probably never will. Republicans have consistently opposed social programs and if not for the backlash at the ballot box, would abolish them today. Christian charity demands we provide for the poor. You might not agree with that. This is the wealthiest country in history and there is plenty of capital. The wealthy are not going broke anytime soon since they have the power. Some object to paying any taxes they don't agree with, calling it robbery or says taxes are illegitimate. The most generous people I have ever met are working class. They will give you their last dollar or their shirt if they don't have a dollar. The wealthy give from their surplus, not their substance. That is the difference.
Me: M.S., what people do with their own money, no matter how rich they are, is none of your business. It's their money, they decide. Not you. Not government. Greed is not illegal, and laws will not change that.
Me: C. C., who is "we?" You and me, or government? If you want to help the poor, get out your checkbook and do something.
M.S.: Actually, it is the government's business...and as a voting member of the united states of america, it's also my business...
C.C.: Rich, Are you advocating that greed is a virtue? You sound offended. I stand by what I said. You were not a target. Your agreement is not a requirement. I have been alluding to Christian charity, apparently your politics determines your perceptions. Christian charity is not political. R.E. understands what I am saying.
Me: M.S., what people do with their property, including money, is not government's business. It is a gross invasion of privacy to force people to report what they earn and spend and on what. No one has a right to say that someone is making too much money, and certainly no one has a right to seize the supposed excess.
Unless you are willing to allow the same scrutiny of your sex life... Because our personal choices are no one's business. Certainly not yours.
Me: C.C., I did no such thing. Greed is a moral issue, but you're bringing it into a political context. I take it you are in favor of legislating morality?
You have been using the word Christian, as if Christian morality ought to be legislated. It is you who is trying to combine the two.
It seems taking care of the poor is not your responsibility, it's the government's, and there's absolutely nothing Christian about that. Apparently there is a morality, yours, that ought to be codified into law. No longer in favor of the separation of church and state?
C.C.: Rich, I am not sure where you are trying to go with this. I said it was a Christians duty to care for the poor and that Food Stamps were necessary as are Church food banks. You are bringing politics into this. The government does have social service programs, I take it you don't think that they should. You are entitled to your opinion. The rest of us may not see things your way. That is our choice. I am not sure if your beef is with government or poor people?
M.S.: Okay, here's the deal buddy. You live in America, and regardless of what you believe in or how much you complain about it, it IS the governments business how much you make and what you spend it on. For better or for worse, they keep tabs because that's what we the people feel is best. Quite frankly, they don't care at all about what you spent your money on, unless you give them reason to. They also keep tabs on your income so that they can figure out how much money you owe them since guess what, taxes are the only thing that keep this country from sinking. So do your civic duty and save our country, pay some taxes, it won't kill you.
Welcome to the real world.
P.S. My sex life has nothing to do with the livelihood of this country, so I'm not really sure where you were going with that.
Me: C.C., you used the phrase "social justice," which is a political term. Your second post was "...but Republicans seem to want to scrap the safety nets..."
So I'm guessing you're a leftist, because that's what leftists do, they accuse others of doing what they are in fact doing, they divert the topic, they start bringing up motivations, they making veiled accusations about hating this or that.
Me: M.S., I'm not your buddy. And regardless of what you believe in, it is not anyone's business what I or anyone else does with their money.
"The people?" What?? When did any of us vote on this? This is not "the people."
"So they can figure out how much money you owe them." Um, no. So that with our required complicity we report to them the private details of our lives, to give them the information they need to extract from us the fruit of our labors. That is immoral.
"Save our country from what? The men and women who are spending it without limit? And please note that I never expressed opposition to taxes, only one specific tax, the income tax, and especially to the degree it is extracted to punish some and reward others.
And I'm an American, it's my right to know if you're engaging in any behaviors that spread disease or violate my morals. So there is a societal interest, and there is an opportunity for me to impose my morals with the force of law. Because you have no objection to imposing your morality.
C.C.: Rich, You ramble on about what you think I might believe. You ignore the question. Do you have a problem with poor people or just the government?
M.S.: Okay Rich, I think we've bothered R.E. enough, if you want to continue to discuss this in a private message I am more than willing.
R.E.: M.S.: Quick Question How did this Country Pay for things before the first Income Tax was put into effect? C.C., a Question to you you keep talking about what Christian Charity Does that mean since this Country has all but outlawed anything to do With Crist, The Bible tells us to tithe and Give to the needy, Not those that refuse to work. The way the welfare system is implemented it create dependency and those need it it is a good thing, But those who abuse it and Commit fraud are stealing from you and me, How is that Charity? When an able body person is out looking for work and abusing the system, How is that charity? Remember one of the seven deadly Sins is Sloth. The system is broken and needs to be looked at and fixed. The Christian charity you are talking about can do more harm than good by destroring the Human Spirit and will to work. I but less than 50% of the people using the Welfare system are able to work but choose not to. Take my dad for example he grew up in the Ghettos of St Paul Minnesota and because he didn't get government hand out became one of the most successful Businessmen I have ever met. So what we are saying The government helping the needy is a good thing but giving money to those who could work is a bad thing.
D.G: Can I jump in on this?
R.E.: Of course I was gone all day and you see the Novel I came home to.
C.C.: R.E., Do you profess to be a Christian? If you are you are expected to practice Christian charity. It is. that simple. I have no intention of turning this into a debate. I will not judge you but you have absorbed a bunch of political crap that is not Christianity by any definition I have. I have nothing more to say on the subject. Peace.
D.G.: R.E., you'll just get mad at me. Lol!
C.C.: R.E., Your already mad at me, your acting like our buddy James Hall. Peace.
R.E.: The Bible says that God will judge us on what we give by our own free will and not what we are forced to give. Can we all agree that the system is broken and Needs over hauling? What would your Ideas to fix it?
R.E.: Remember one of the goals of the welfare system is to help able body people out while they are trying to get back on their feet.
R.E.: I am not mad at anyone about this subject I would like to know how we could fix it
C.C.: There are many things that don't work as planned on this earth. I don't think the good Lord expects you and I to fix them all. I believe he expects us to pay our taxes. And practice Christian charity. I can quote scripture if you would like but I would rather not.
R.E.: I have not said anything about not paying my taxes.
R.E.: And we also know that there are too many loop holes in the tax codes that are taken advantage of on both side of the Isle.
C.C.: All I was ever referring to back at the beginning was charity. My faith does not spring from politics. I do my best to please my Lord and do what he expects me to do.
C.C.: I was having a discussion with you and he jumped right in the middle on his political attack which is all stereotype and no substance. He has no way to know what I believe.
R.E.: you need to re read my comments on this and you will se I ask afew questions and no one addressed my comments directly.
C.C.: Your right. That was before Rich took over the conversation. He is an ignoramus on church and politics. Not worth having a discussion with. He tries to turn charity into something it is not.
D.G.: Fixing it is easy. Some sort of ongoing requirement to meet with the parent (s) to see progress. But SNAP generally serves the best interest of the children. It's wrong to punish them because they have dirt-bag parents. They didn't get a choice.
C.C.: Charity to me is doing what I can for those less fortunate than I am.
D.G.: The problem with what I'm suggesting is it will cost more money. Conservatives don't want that.
C.C.: D.G., I totally agree. Just because there are so bad people in the program. We shouldn't cancel the whole program.
R.E.: Actually he is pretty smart on both. You just don't agree with him on this subject. Because when you call some one an ignoramus because you don't agree with him makes you sound like Mr. Hall.
C.C.: Conservatives don't want any social programs, it seems.
D.G.: Of course not. That punishes kids. It's not their fault. They just want to eat
R.E.: Go ahead and lump all comservatives together,
R.E.: When did I say I want snap or welfare to be ended?
D.G.: I didn't read the whole thread. Just adding my 2 cents
C.C.: He doesn't understand charity or social justice. He kept trying to make it political, which it isn't. Church isn't supposed to be political either, there are just those who insist on trying to make it so. Jesus was not a politician.
C.C.: Not you, conservatives generally do.
R.E.: All I have said is we need to stop the abuse of the System
D.G.: He? R.E.?
C.C.: He= Rich
D.G.: ok
R.E.: Explain how taxes are charity? you have the floor
D.G.: Any system can be abused.I have to change my password every 6 months
C.C.: Welfare and social programs are funded by taxes.
D.G.:Taxes are a cost of living in a great society.
C.C.: D.G., True again
R.E.: But if they're abused then those people are stealing from all of us,
D.G.: We vote, send people to represent us, and they decide how to spend the money. If we don't like it, we vote for someone else
M.S.: okay, well this entire thread from about an hour ago was tl:dr. So I'll just say this. 'MERICA!
D.G.: You're alleging a crime. Prove it
C.C.: Not all are thieves, just some.
C.C.: M.S., explain please.
M.S.: tl;dr is young people speak for too long; didn't read.
R.E.: Welfare fraud is crime
M.S.: 'MERICA is "AMERICA!!!"
D.G.: There are bad apples in every barrel. Cops, politicians, teachers, priests, the list goes on. Should we scrape them all?
C.C.: M.S., I think you're on to something.
C.C.: R.E., I think enough has been said. Peace
R.E.: I agree all you have done is attacked me
C.C.: Not really, You and I obviously won't agree.
R.E., look back at the thread and see how you ganged up on me and I didn't even get to defend myself
C.C.: I guess I am a gang of one. I am genuinely sorry you feel I was attacking you. I apologize.
R.E.: Don't worry about it it was you and Don that went on the attack
C.C.: D.G. and I disagree with you. It's not a personal attack. It is that simple.
Me: Tell me, C.C., (and notice I still approach you with respect, unlike you are doing to me), is calling someone an ignoramus a christian behavior? Since you are an expert and all?
Once again I shall point out that before I joined the conversation, YOU said, "...but Republicans seem to want to scrap the safety nets..." YOU made it political, YOU are the one retreating from your comments and hiding behind a "christian charity" that has nothing at all to do with Christianity. Then you somehow feel free to call into question the religion of those who disagree, while simultaneously avoiding any discussion points raised against you. Instead, you start name calling.
But of course, you're the Compassionate One. Right.
Me: Agreed, M.S.. However, you have described something different. There is nothing compassionate about a government who by the use of force extracts money from some people and redistributes it to others. In fact, that is the opposite of compassion, because the government inserts itself into my compassion transaction, and chooses for me the time, place, and kind of exchange that will occur.
By way of illustration, if a person approaches you on the street and robs you, then gives the money to a poor person, is that compassionate? No, it's theft. If a group of people get together and vote to take money from you and then give it to the poor, is that compassion? No, that is also theft. A majority vote does not make theft moral or legitimate.
M.S.: Although I see your concern, most of the "1%" aren't spreading their wealth in compassionate ways or in sums that people are comfortable with. That is why there is a mandated "donation" in the form of tax. It's based under the assumption that people are greedy, and sadly, most people are.
R.E.: The rich in this country does a lot charity than the poor does look at ever foundation that help the poor and sick were generally started by the wealthy
M.S.: Of course, but that's still not most of the rich, and of course the poor can't start massive organizations that require tons of funding. I'm not saying nobody donates. Just that most people need a bit of a push in the right direction.
R.E.: The point of the posting is by making people dependent on Government hand out you weaken the human spirit.
M.S.: I agree with that. I think a better system needs to be in place
R.E.: I agree more check and balances. These need to be tempory help for most.
C.C.: R.E., the posting is meant to be an attack on The SNAP program. Unfortunately there are some of us who would like to go back to the good old 1930 depression days before Social programs and Social Security. Most of the people who feel that way have never missed a meal and probably never will. Republicans have consistently opposed social programs and if not for the backlash at the ballot box, would abolish them today. Christian charity demands we provide for the poor. You might not agree with that. This is the wealthiest country in history and there is plenty of capital. The wealthy are not going broke anytime soon since they have the power. Some object to paying any taxes they don't agree with, calling it robbery or says taxes are illegitimate. The most generous people I have ever met are working class. They will give you their last dollar or their shirt if they don't have a dollar. The wealthy give from their surplus, not their substance. That is the difference.
Me: M.S., what people do with their own money, no matter how rich they are, is none of your business. It's their money, they decide. Not you. Not government. Greed is not illegal, and laws will not change that.
Me: C. C., who is "we?" You and me, or government? If you want to help the poor, get out your checkbook and do something.
M.S.: Actually, it is the government's business...and as a voting member of the united states of america, it's also my business...
C.C.: Rich, Are you advocating that greed is a virtue? You sound offended. I stand by what I said. You were not a target. Your agreement is not a requirement. I have been alluding to Christian charity, apparently your politics determines your perceptions. Christian charity is not political. R.E. understands what I am saying.
Me: M.S., what people do with their property, including money, is not government's business. It is a gross invasion of privacy to force people to report what they earn and spend and on what. No one has a right to say that someone is making too much money, and certainly no one has a right to seize the supposed excess.
Unless you are willing to allow the same scrutiny of your sex life... Because our personal choices are no one's business. Certainly not yours.
Me: C.C., I did no such thing. Greed is a moral issue, but you're bringing it into a political context. I take it you are in favor of legislating morality?
You have been using the word Christian, as if Christian morality ought to be legislated. It is you who is trying to combine the two.
It seems taking care of the poor is not your responsibility, it's the government's, and there's absolutely nothing Christian about that. Apparently there is a morality, yours, that ought to be codified into law. No longer in favor of the separation of church and state?
C.C.: Rich, I am not sure where you are trying to go with this. I said it was a Christians duty to care for the poor and that Food Stamps were necessary as are Church food banks. You are bringing politics into this. The government does have social service programs, I take it you don't think that they should. You are entitled to your opinion. The rest of us may not see things your way. That is our choice. I am not sure if your beef is with government or poor people?
M.S.: Okay, here's the deal buddy. You live in America, and regardless of what you believe in or how much you complain about it, it IS the governments business how much you make and what you spend it on. For better or for worse, they keep tabs because that's what we the people feel is best. Quite frankly, they don't care at all about what you spent your money on, unless you give them reason to. They also keep tabs on your income so that they can figure out how much money you owe them since guess what, taxes are the only thing that keep this country from sinking. So do your civic duty and save our country, pay some taxes, it won't kill you.
Welcome to the real world.
P.S. My sex life has nothing to do with the livelihood of this country, so I'm not really sure where you were going with that.
Me: C.C., you used the phrase "social justice," which is a political term. Your second post was "...but Republicans seem to want to scrap the safety nets..."
So I'm guessing you're a leftist, because that's what leftists do, they accuse others of doing what they are in fact doing, they divert the topic, they start bringing up motivations, they making veiled accusations about hating this or that.
Me: M.S., I'm not your buddy. And regardless of what you believe in, it is not anyone's business what I or anyone else does with their money.
"The people?" What?? When did any of us vote on this? This is not "the people."
"So they can figure out how much money you owe them." Um, no. So that with our required complicity we report to them the private details of our lives, to give them the information they need to extract from us the fruit of our labors. That is immoral.
"Save our country from what? The men and women who are spending it without limit? And please note that I never expressed opposition to taxes, only one specific tax, the income tax, and especially to the degree it is extracted to punish some and reward others.
And I'm an American, it's my right to know if you're engaging in any behaviors that spread disease or violate my morals. So there is a societal interest, and there is an opportunity for me to impose my morals with the force of law. Because you have no objection to imposing your morality.
C.C.: Rich, You ramble on about what you think I might believe. You ignore the question. Do you have a problem with poor people or just the government?
M.S.: Okay Rich, I think we've bothered R.E. enough, if you want to continue to discuss this in a private message I am more than willing.
R.E.: M.S.: Quick Question How did this Country Pay for things before the first Income Tax was put into effect? C.C., a Question to you you keep talking about what Christian Charity Does that mean since this Country has all but outlawed anything to do With Crist, The Bible tells us to tithe and Give to the needy, Not those that refuse to work. The way the welfare system is implemented it create dependency and those need it it is a good thing, But those who abuse it and Commit fraud are stealing from you and me, How is that Charity? When an able body person is out looking for work and abusing the system, How is that charity? Remember one of the seven deadly Sins is Sloth. The system is broken and needs to be looked at and fixed. The Christian charity you are talking about can do more harm than good by destroring the Human Spirit and will to work. I but less than 50% of the people using the Welfare system are able to work but choose not to. Take my dad for example he grew up in the Ghettos of St Paul Minnesota and because he didn't get government hand out became one of the most successful Businessmen I have ever met. So what we are saying The government helping the needy is a good thing but giving money to those who could work is a bad thing.
D.G: Can I jump in on this?
R.E.: Of course I was gone all day and you see the Novel I came home to.
C.C.: R.E., Do you profess to be a Christian? If you are you are expected to practice Christian charity. It is. that simple. I have no intention of turning this into a debate. I will not judge you but you have absorbed a bunch of political crap that is not Christianity by any definition I have. I have nothing more to say on the subject. Peace.
D.G.: R.E., you'll just get mad at me. Lol!
C.C.: R.E., Your already mad at me, your acting like our buddy James Hall. Peace.
R.E.: The Bible says that God will judge us on what we give by our own free will and not what we are forced to give. Can we all agree that the system is broken and Needs over hauling? What would your Ideas to fix it?
R.E.: Remember one of the goals of the welfare system is to help able body people out while they are trying to get back on their feet.
R.E.: I am not mad at anyone about this subject I would like to know how we could fix it
C.C.: There are many things that don't work as planned on this earth. I don't think the good Lord expects you and I to fix them all. I believe he expects us to pay our taxes. And practice Christian charity. I can quote scripture if you would like but I would rather not.
R.E.: I have not said anything about not paying my taxes.
R.E.: And we also know that there are too many loop holes in the tax codes that are taken advantage of on both side of the Isle.
C.C.: All I was ever referring to back at the beginning was charity. My faith does not spring from politics. I do my best to please my Lord and do what he expects me to do.
C.C.: I was having a discussion with you and he jumped right in the middle on his political attack which is all stereotype and no substance. He has no way to know what I believe.
R.E.: you need to re read my comments on this and you will se I ask afew questions and no one addressed my comments directly.
C.C.: Your right. That was before Rich took over the conversation. He is an ignoramus on church and politics. Not worth having a discussion with. He tries to turn charity into something it is not.
D.G.: Fixing it is easy. Some sort of ongoing requirement to meet with the parent (s) to see progress. But SNAP generally serves the best interest of the children. It's wrong to punish them because they have dirt-bag parents. They didn't get a choice.
C.C.: Charity to me is doing what I can for those less fortunate than I am.
D.G.: The problem with what I'm suggesting is it will cost more money. Conservatives don't want that.
C.C.: D.G., I totally agree. Just because there are so bad people in the program. We shouldn't cancel the whole program.
R.E.: Actually he is pretty smart on both. You just don't agree with him on this subject. Because when you call some one an ignoramus because you don't agree with him makes you sound like Mr. Hall.
C.C.: Conservatives don't want any social programs, it seems.
D.G.: Of course not. That punishes kids. It's not their fault. They just want to eat
R.E.: Go ahead and lump all comservatives together,
R.E.: When did I say I want snap or welfare to be ended?
D.G.: I didn't read the whole thread. Just adding my 2 cents
C.C.: He doesn't understand charity or social justice. He kept trying to make it political, which it isn't. Church isn't supposed to be political either, there are just those who insist on trying to make it so. Jesus was not a politician.
C.C.: Not you, conservatives generally do.
R.E.: All I have said is we need to stop the abuse of the System
D.G.: He? R.E.?
C.C.: He= Rich
D.G.: ok
R.E.: Explain how taxes are charity? you have the floor
D.G.: Any system can be abused.I have to change my password every 6 months
C.C.: Welfare and social programs are funded by taxes.
D.G.:Taxes are a cost of living in a great society.
C.C.: D.G., True again
R.E.: But if they're abused then those people are stealing from all of us,
D.G.: We vote, send people to represent us, and they decide how to spend the money. If we don't like it, we vote for someone else
M.S.: okay, well this entire thread from about an hour ago was tl:dr. So I'll just say this. 'MERICA!
D.G.: You're alleging a crime. Prove it
C.C.: Not all are thieves, just some.
C.C.: M.S., explain please.
M.S.: tl;dr is young people speak for too long; didn't read.
R.E.: Welfare fraud is crime
M.S.: 'MERICA is "AMERICA!!!"
D.G.: There are bad apples in every barrel. Cops, politicians, teachers, priests, the list goes on. Should we scrape them all?
C.C.: M.S., I think you're on to something.
C.C.: R.E., I think enough has been said. Peace
R.E.: I agree all you have done is attacked me
C.C.: Not really, You and I obviously won't agree.
R.E., look back at the thread and see how you ganged up on me and I didn't even get to defend myself
C.C.: I guess I am a gang of one. I am genuinely sorry you feel I was attacking you. I apologize.
R.E.: Don't worry about it it was you and Don that went on the attack
C.C.: D.G. and I disagree with you. It's not a personal attack. It is that simple.
Me: Tell me, C.C., (and notice I still approach you with respect, unlike you are doing to me), is calling someone an ignoramus a christian behavior? Since you are an expert and all?
Once again I shall point out that before I joined the conversation, YOU said, "...but Republicans seem to want to scrap the safety nets..." YOU made it political, YOU are the one retreating from your comments and hiding behind a "christian charity" that has nothing at all to do with Christianity. Then you somehow feel free to call into question the religion of those who disagree, while simultaneously avoiding any discussion points raised against you. Instead, you start name calling.
But of course, you're the Compassionate One. Right.
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