The quote comes from Lincoln's 1861 State of the Union address. One might get the impression that Lincoln was pontificating on the labor theory of value 6 years before Karl Marx published Das Kapital, which stuck me as ridiculous from the start. Indeed, that is exactly what my leftist friend thought, until I corrected him.
Being naturally skeptical, especially since it was a leftist that posted it, I googled the quote. This yielded me the previously cited link. Here we find that Lincoln's address was wide ranging, with budget figures, commentary on the "insurrection," as he called slavery issue, and information regarding territories and potential additions to the Union.
Late in the speech we arrive at the quoted sentences. What was Lincoln talking about? Was he a forerunner of socialist thought? Was he dissing corporations and extolling the labor movement? Was he talking about the worker rising up and taking over from the eeevil elite? Well, no. Turns out, he was really talking about the American dream: Working hard, pulling one's self up by his bootstraps, building up value by being diligent, and making a life in this land of opportunity.
Here's what he said in the next paragraph, as he expanded his thoughts:
"Many independent men everywhere in these States a few years back in their lives were hired laborers. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all."Not exactly a treatise regarding the struggle of the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeois, eh?
I think you've missed Lincoln's point, and that of your 'leftist' friend. Did you actually read his introductory sentence? Lincoln was "...raising a warning voice against this approach of returning despotism." http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=29502
ReplyDeleteUm, yeah. Maybe you didn't read this: "It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government." Lincoln was talking about how it relates to government, not how economies work or are structured.
ReplyDeleteYou're talking in circles. One minute you say Lincoln "was really talking about the American dream" and "bootstraps", the next minute you say "he was talking about how (the Labor-Capital question) relates to Government.
ReplyDeleteLincoln was (quite clearly) talking about the Despotism of Capital, when Capital believes itself to be superior to Labor.
Funny thing is that you seem to miss ALL the Points. For example, if you 'got the joke' about Wile E. Coyote -- "Genius", you'd know that the Coyote is an Idiot, a Dolt. The Coyote deludes himself into believing he is a genius, but somehow "Genius" always winds up holding the TNT when it explodes, always under the boulder when it falls, always "too late" to cognition.
"That Coyote is really a crazy Clown".
If the shoe fits...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wile_E._Coyote_and_The_Road_Runner#Laws_and_rules
You do realize that this is a State of the Union speech, with multiple topics, don't you? It's nearly 7000 words. So yes, it's about the American dream, bootstraps, the civil war, and several other topics. You might try reading it.
ReplyDeleteThen he turns to how government ought to consider labor vs. capital. It's really simple for the average person to understand. I'm sure you can do it.
The average person also understands self-effacing humor; thus, the coyote reference. I'm sorry I had to explain it to you.
Perhaps you should move on to someone else's blog. You clearly aren't tall enough for this ride.
Nonsense, horsemess and malarkey. You didn't post about the 7,000 words (wow, did you really count them?).
ReplyDeleteYou posted about the final five paragraphs, of which are five are clearly directed toward a final point. Lincoln was nothing if not eloquent, but that seems to escape you.
For your conveinience, allow me to direct you to Lincoln's summary, since you haven't seemed able to find (or perhaps comprehend) it:
"Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which if surrendered will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them till all of liberty shall be lost."
Care to interpret that for those of us not "tall enough"?
Oh, please. You have yet do make a single point other than my lack of comprehension. Do you have a anything to actually debate? Again, I suggest you move on to some other blog where you can impugn people as desired.
ReplyDeleteRe: "Do you have a anything to actually debate?"
ReplyDeleteYes, although it is now apparent that you need it spelled out in simplistic terms.
My point is that your post here is nonsense, that your interpretation of Lincoln's message is deeply flawed and stems from your ignorance, and further, that in the ensuing dialogue your defense of your ill-considered position is inept, at best.
You ignore (as the ignorant generally do) the summary point Lincoln made. Perhaps 'third time is a charm':
"Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which if surrendered will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them till all of liberty shall be lost."
Wile E. (Genius), your reply is awaited.
For some reason you persist in trumpeting my supposed ignorance without getting around to making an actual argument. Which suggests to me that you are simply content to believe that people who disagree with you are stupid, and thus you do not have to do anything further.
ReplyDeleteTypical leftist. Always making it personal, never about the debate.
I gave you more than one chance to offer an actual argument. Since is seems you are unwilling to do this, no further posts from you will be published.
Again, I suggest you search out a blog where it is sufficient to impugn someone without offering points of debate. I'm sure you'll be very happy there.