A.M.: I have challenged many so called faith healers to heal just 1 floor of the local hospital.
They always say "it doesn't work like that." My reply is "that's exactly how it worked in the first century".
Me: Actually, there are people who do just that and people get healed.
A.M.: Rasputin did exactly that in Russia.
Me: No, he didn't.
A.M.: Yes he did. Rasputin did many miracles, but not all miracles come from God.
Rasputin was an evil monk that was using the power of the deceiver/the beautiful one/satan to achieve his goals
Me: Rasputin and Paul did the same thing? Really?
A.M.:that depends on your opinion of Paul, but Rasputin did all sorts of miracles yet everything he touched eventually resulted in a horrible outcome.
Me: Paul was an apostle! He wrote most of the N.T.. But Paul and Rasputin did the same thing, with the unfortunate caveat that Rasputin's miracles resulting in horrible outcomes? Whaa?
Me: You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
A.M.:Every time the hemophiliac heir to the throne became Ill, Rasputin did faith Healings to make him better.
Read up on Rasputin.
If one allows the beautiful one to do their evil through them, satan most certainly can and will.
As for Paul, you are the one that made the statement about Rasputin and Paul doing the same thing. If one is has such a twisted mentality that they believe that, they are beyond my help.
Me: "Rasputin did exactly that in Russia." This is your statement about healing. You compared satanic healing to the legitimate variety. You claimed that people who actually go to hospitals and ask God to heal the sick are just like Rasputin. You are the one thinks satan's evil is actually pretty good.
At least I have the good manners not to call someone twisted.
A.M.: You are correct, I know nothing about scripture or the power of God.
Here is a list of the scriptures I have and do study in chronological order:...
A.M.: If the deceiver removes sickness from someone, are they healed?
I do not believe the "holy roller" show healers are doing the work of God and here's why. When the Holy Spirit imparted spiritual gifts on the apostles, there was a very specific limitation involved. To share the miraculous gifts, one of the Apostles had to go and physically touch those that were to be receiving their abilities. There is absolutely no scriptural exception to this.
That being the case, once the firstfruit apostles passed away the ability to impart those gifts passed on with them.
So unless those that are going to hospitals and are healing were received the "laying of hands", then they are not doing the type of healing done in the the 1st generation after the resurrection of Christ.
If someone is claiming to be doing miracles that God commanded but are not, there is only one other source of the supposed miracles and that source is the same source that Rasputin had called upon.
This does not mean that if we pray for someone to get well and God answers those prayers that we are not doing God's will. God is in control and satan, the beautiful one is bound but if one wants help from the deceiver badly enough he most certainly can give it.
Me: Now you're just making stuff up. And I never defended "holy rollers."
A.M.: @Rich, I don't claim to have all the answers and I may be in error. I pray for guidance every day and try my best to do right before God and before my family.
A.M.: What am I making up? Would you indulge me to the point of giving chapter and verse where I am wrong?
A.M.: As I see it, if you are going to play the "you are in error card", it's only right to explain how and why one came to that conclusion.
I'm listening to you now.
Me: Rather than continuing to hijack S.L.'s post, I'll simply refer you to my blog post that addresses this very thing: http://mountainmantrails.blogspot.com/.../john-macarthur...
Me: I have posted several things about this topic on my blog, and further links can be supplied if you're interested.
A.M.: If there is one thing I know and admire about SL., she wants good Biblical discussions on her posts.
I'm interested in finding the chapter and verse where the power that imparted the abilities to perform miracles was shared or passed on by non-apostles or was passed on by apostles using means other than "laying of hands".
A simple example pointed out in a chapter and verse would suffice.
Me: You made the bare assertion. You should back up your claim first. Nevertheless, I shall make my case.
First, it was generally the impartation of Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands, not the gifts. But sometimes not. Example: Acts 10:44-48.
The laying on of hands was also used as a sort of commissioning: Ac. 6:6.
In Acts 9:17, Annanias, not an apostle, laid hands on Paul, and he was healed and filled with the Holy Spirit.
There is no mention of laying on of hands in 1 Corinthians, where one would expect to find backing for your assertion.
Jesus himself did not always place his hands on people for healing, nor to impart the Holy Spirit: Jn. 20:22, Mt. 10:1, Mk. 3:14, Lk. 10:1.
A.M.: Jesus was not an apostle.
What miracles did Paul perform immediately after Ananias healed him? The statement of Paul being filled with the Holy Spirit says absolutely nothing about him performing miracles.
And Paul was a unique case since he began calling himself an Apostle in the not so distant future.
I asked for examples of spiritual gifts being given using means other than laying of hands and by those other than the apostles.
"Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers." (1 Timothy 4:11-16 ESV)
Where is the gift of prophecy? Where are those that speak in tongues? Healing the sick was the least important of all such gifts because healing had the least to do with teaching of any such gifts, but if there were sick people being healed when someone simply touched a man's clothing, it would probably be a rather big news story.
There is no example of someone receiving such gifts by some other means than with the laying of hands of the apostles which were the original Jerusalem council
A.M.: Consider this. When the apostles were healing, crowds came. I don't claim to know what such miracles looked like but apparently it was something to see because crowds showed up wherever the miracles were taking place.
I personally have a Sci-fi based mental picture of what that would have looked like because when the miracles were happening, crowds came to see so I figure it must have been quite a display.
Me: How about addressing what I posted?
A.M.: "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you." (1 Timothy 4:11, 14 ESV)
I asked you for an example of such gifts being imparted another way.
Here is an example where it clearly says the gift was imparted because of the laying of hands of the council of elders which was the gathering of the Apostles in Jerusalem in 49-50A.D.
So where is an example of such gifts being imparted without such laying of hands?
Me: Timothy was a unique case, to use your excuse.
A.M.: Did Timothy name himself an Apostle?
Me: Did Barnabas?
Me: I note for the record you have failed to directly answer my points, you have moved the goalposts, and you have not read my blog post.
My participation has ended.
A.M.: I note for the record that you absolutely failed to answer my question.
You cannot give one example of the ability to perform miracles being imparted using means other than laying of hands.
Me: And you have yet to present a case that such a thing is a biblical requirement.
A.M.: But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. (Acts 8:9-14, 16-22 ESV)
A.M.: who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-19 ESV)
How is the spirit imparted?
Me: Well done, you've established what I said above, that the laying on of hands was an impartation of the Holy Spirit. Hmm. No spiritual gifts mentioned...
A.M.: Then why was Simon the Magician so interested in gaining this power?
A.M.: Simon the magician was interested because he had seen the miracles performed and wanted those powers for himself. If it was only about the Holy Spirit, the magician would have had nothing to gain.
Me: I did not say it was only about the Holy Spirit. And I'm still waiting for you to make the scriptural case that only the apostles could bestow the gifts. One scripture will do, if you have one.
A.M.: Now, can you show me a situation where spiritual gifts were imparted through another means?
Also note that the Apostles went to Samaria to lay some hands. If just anyone could give such gifts why was it necessary for Apostles to be there
A.M.: "Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands,"
Me: You do understand that the apostles did not believe the gospel had gone to the gentiles? Especially the despised samaritans? These were noteworthy events.
I will not make any further moves to explain these rudimentary concepts to you until you make at least some small effort to prove your case.
Me: So you believe that the Spirit can only be imparted by apostles?
A.M.: I believe that aspects of the spirit that a magician would want for profit could only be imparted by the apostles.
If anyone else was imparting such gifts, Simon would have gone to them. And if anyone else could do it, the Apostles would not have gone to Samaria because to them it was repulsive
A.M.: If I'm wrong, send me a video of folks using their spiritual gifts today
A.M.: The age of miracles had pretty much ended by 100 AD. That's why it became important to put the Christian story into writing.
Me: How hard can it be? Do you have anything other than an argument from silence?
A.M.: The silence is coming from your absent miracle workers. In the day and age when everything that happens is recorded on a cell phone, we have no prophecy, no speaking in tongues, and nothing close to the type of healing that happened in the 1st century.
Me: Last time I ask. Name the scriptures.
A.M.: I gave you scripture. It's your turn to answer my question with scripture.
A.M.: who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-19 ESV)
A.M.: Simon saw that the the spirit was given through the laying of apostles hands.
Simon said "Give me this power also so that Anyone I lay my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit"
A.M.: Why did the Apostles go to Samaria? What was the spirit waiting for?
If it was Gods will that the Samaritans received the spirit, why didn't the spirit just go into them when they were baptized?
Me: *Sigh* Name the scriptures that tell us what you asserted, that
1) ONLY the apostles can impart spiritual gifts
2) ONLY the apostles laying their hands can do so
3) ONLY the apostles can work miracles
4) The miraculous ended when the last apostle died.
Your question requires a scriptural basis to be considered. I have yet to see the above four assertions be answered, so as to entertain your question.
A.M.: You misrepresenting what I said. I said only the Apostles could pass the the power of the miracles on. So once the last apostles died, those that had been around the apostles had the abilities to do miracles, but they were not able to pass them on
A.M.: If I'm wrong, let's see some people speaking in tongues or some prophecy
Me: Yes, yes, yes. What is the scripture that tells us this? Or is there one? I can't believe this is that hard that you cannot understand that I want a scriptural basis, not a bunch of speculation and reading between the lines?
A.M.: "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you." (1 Timothy 4:11, 14 ESV)
I asked you for an example of such gifts being imparted another way.
Here is an example where it clearly says the gift was imparted because of the laying of hands of the council of elders which was the gathering of the Apostles in Jerusalem in 49-50A.D.
So where is an example of such gifts being imparted without such laying of hands?
Me: Timothy was a unique case, to use your excuse.
A.M.: Did Timothy name himself an Apostle?
Me: Did Barnabas?
Me: I note for the record you have failed to directly answer my points, you have moved the goalposts, and you have not read my blog post.
My participation has ended.
A.M.: I note for the record that you absolutely failed to answer my question.
You cannot give one example of the ability to perform miracles being imparted using means other than laying of hands.
Me: And you have yet to present a case that such a thing is a biblical requirement.
A.M.: But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. (Acts 8:9-14, 16-22 ESV)
A.M.: who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-19 ESV)
How is the spirit imparted?
Me: Well done, you've established what I said above, that the laying on of hands was an impartation of the Holy Spirit. Hmm. No spiritual gifts mentioned...
A.M.: Then why was Simon the Magician so interested in gaining this power?
A.M.: Simon the magician was interested because he had seen the miracles performed and wanted those powers for himself. If it was only about the Holy Spirit, the magician would have had nothing to gain.
Me: I did not say it was only about the Holy Spirit. And I'm still waiting for you to make the scriptural case that only the apostles could bestow the gifts. One scripture will do, if you have one.
A.M.: Now, can you show me a situation where spiritual gifts were imparted through another means?
Also note that the Apostles went to Samaria to lay some hands. If just anyone could give such gifts why was it necessary for Apostles to be there
A.M.: "Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands,"
Me: You do understand that the apostles did not believe the gospel had gone to the gentiles? Especially the despised samaritans? These were noteworthy events.
I will not make any further moves to explain these rudimentary concepts to you until you make at least some small effort to prove your case.
Me: So you believe that the Spirit can only be imparted by apostles?
A.M.: I believe that aspects of the spirit that a magician would want for profit could only be imparted by the apostles.
If anyone else was imparting such gifts, Simon would have gone to them. And if anyone else could do it, the Apostles would not have gone to Samaria because to them it was repulsive
A.M.: If I'm wrong, send me a video of folks using their spiritual gifts today
A.M.: The age of miracles had pretty much ended by 100 AD. That's why it became important to put the Christian story into writing.
Me: How hard can it be? Do you have anything other than an argument from silence?
A.M.: The silence is coming from your absent miracle workers. In the day and age when everything that happens is recorded on a cell phone, we have no prophecy, no speaking in tongues, and nothing close to the type of healing that happened in the 1st century.
Me: Last time I ask. Name the scriptures.
A.M.: I gave you scripture. It's your turn to answer my question with scripture.
A.M.: who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-19 ESV)
A.M.: Simon saw that the the spirit was given through the laying of apostles hands.
Simon said "Give me this power also so that Anyone I lay my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit"
A.M.: Why did the Apostles go to Samaria? What was the spirit waiting for?
If it was Gods will that the Samaritans received the spirit, why didn't the spirit just go into them when they were baptized?
Me: *Sigh* Name the scriptures that tell us what you asserted, that
1) ONLY the apostles can impart spiritual gifts
2) ONLY the apostles laying their hands can do so
3) ONLY the apostles can work miracles
4) The miraculous ended when the last apostle died.
Your question requires a scriptural basis to be considered. I have yet to see the above four assertions be answered, so as to entertain your question.
A.M.: You misrepresenting what I said. I said only the Apostles could pass the the power of the miracles on. So once the last apostles died, those that had been around the apostles had the abilities to do miracles, but they were not able to pass them on
A.M.: If I'm wrong, let's see some people speaking in tongues or some prophecy
Me: Yes, yes, yes. What is the scripture that tells us this? Or is there one? I can't believe this is that hard that you cannot understand that I want a scriptural basis, not a bunch of speculation and reading between the lines?
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