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What a strange title. Where did the three hour thing come from?
***Update*** it appears the reference is to the three hours Jesus hung on the cross.
***
Our views on the death and resurrection of Jesus might be viewed as controversial, but in our pursuit of biblical truth apart from the preconceptions instilled in us by well-meaning pastors and theologians, we have come to the conclusion that some of the things taught to us are misleading, mistaken, incomplete, or just plain wrong.
We have concluded that Jesus was never punished by the Father.
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On the surface the logic of the atonement is straightforward. (The logic of the matter is of little interest. What about, is it biblical?)
We sin and are therefore under God’s wrath. When Jesus died on the cross, he suffered the punishment that sin deserves. (Undocumented assertion.
If we dig a little deeper, however, we encounter a perplexing question revealed by two biblical teachings. (What is perplexing is the author's ideas.)
First, sin against God demands eternal punishment (Matt. 18:8; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 14:11; 20:10). (#1: True.)
Second, Jesus died, was buried, and rose on the third day. (#2: True.)
He wasn’t punished forever. (#3: Untrue. He was never punished by the Father.)
He’s no longer experiencing God’s wrath. (#4: Untrue. He never experienced God's wrath.)
He’s seated at the right hand of God the Father (Heb. 9:25–26). (#5: True.
Notice the author makes five assertions. #1 is true, and the author documents it with Scripture. Same with #5: true, and documented. #2, while true, is not documented.
However, #3 and #4 speak directly to the subject of his article, but are not referenced with a Bible link. Why did he not document #3 and #4? Perhaps because the Bible does not back those two assertions?)
These twin truths raise the question: How did Jesus receive the full punishment for sin (eternal damnation) if he didn’t suffer eternally? (Well, He didn't receive any punishment for sin, so the eternal nature of damnation isn't relevant.
Our views on the death and resurrection of Jesus might be viewed as controversial, but in our pursuit of biblical truth apart from the preconceptions instilled in us by well-meaning pastors and theologians, we have come to the conclusion that some of the things taught to us are misleading, mistaken, incomplete, or just plain wrong.
We have concluded that Jesus was never punished by the Father.
---------------------
On the surface the logic of the atonement is straightforward. (The logic of the matter is of little interest. What about, is it biblical?)
We sin and are therefore under God’s wrath. When Jesus died on the cross, he suffered the punishment that sin deserves. (Undocumented assertion.
As mentioned, we have analyzed the idea and concluded that Jesus was not punished by the Father. We look in vain for any Scripture that tells us God punished Jesus. It just isn't there.)
If we put our faith in Christ, we have eternal life.
If we dig a little deeper, however, we encounter a perplexing question revealed by two biblical teachings. (What is perplexing is the author's ideas.)
First, sin against God demands eternal punishment (Matt. 18:8; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 14:11; 20:10). (#1: True.)
Second, Jesus died, was buried, and rose on the third day. (#2: True.)
He wasn’t punished forever. (#3: Untrue. He was never punished by the Father.)
He’s no longer experiencing God’s wrath. (#4: Untrue. He never experienced God's wrath.)
He’s seated at the right hand of God the Father (Heb. 9:25–26). (#5: True.
Notice the author makes five assertions. #1 is true, and the author documents it with Scripture. Same with #5: true, and documented. #2, while true, is not documented.
However, #3 and #4 speak directly to the subject of his article, but are not referenced with a Bible link. Why did he not document #3 and #4? Perhaps because the Bible does not back those two assertions?)
These twin truths raise the question: How did Jesus receive the full punishment for sin (eternal damnation) if he didn’t suffer eternally? (Well, He didn't receive any punishment for sin, so the eternal nature of damnation isn't relevant.
Jesus' suffering is not the agent of forgiveness. His death and spilled blood is.)
To answer it, we must ask four additional questions that get at the logic of the atonement.
1. What Is Death?
Paul writes, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Death is the punishment for rebellion against God: when Scripture talks about it, it’s not merely a biological category. God warned Adam that, if he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). Adam didn’t drop dead the day he ate the fruit, but he was cast out of Eden.
Death, then, is fundamentally separation from God. And in its finality, death is eternity in hell. God won’t be entirely absent; for the damned he will be present as judge and punisher. (We don't wish to make our post examine two different articles by two different authors, especially on an completely unrelated topic. But since the author links to someone else to document his assertion, we will briefly detour.
Each passage that contains this word teaches that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. As the perfect sacrifice, his death is able to reconcile God to sinners. The Bible tells us this was a one-time event. Jesus took our punishment in its fullness; the sacrifice won’t happen again, nor is it an ongoing reality (Heb. 9:24–28). (Again, the Father did not punish Jesus! This passage does not teach this. Let's quote the relevant verse from the author's unquoted citation, verse 28:
This leads back to our dilemma: Can Jesus be our propitiation if he is not eternally punished? (The dilemma is non-existent, based on a proper understanding of what Jesus did for us on the cross. Jesus was never punished by the Father.)
To answer, we must ponder the reality of hell.
(...)
Preach the Strange, Logical Gospel
The gospel makes sense. (Unfortunately, the author's presentation does not.)
God doesn’t contradict himself or commit logical fallacies in his plan of salvation. And our presentation of the gospel should make sense to our hearers. (It should? On what basis would the natural mind accept the spiritual implications of the salvation message? What Bible verse teaches this?)
The better we understand the logic of the gospel and apply it in our own lives, the clearer we can explain it to others. Of course, not everyone who hears the gospel believes. But everyone who hears it should at least be able to grasp its message. (1Co. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.)
When we preach the gospel, it may seem strange, offensive, or downright idiotic to our listeners. (We just read, ...the gospel should make sense to our hearers. Sir, which is it?)
But it should never be incoherent, self-contradictory, or illogical if we’ve taken the time to meditate on the stunning logic of God’s salvation plan.
(The author's conundrum descends from an errant idea, that the Father punished Jesus. In fact, the author failed to supply any biblical reference at all that the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The author provides scriptural documentation for ancillary ideas, but his central assertions are left unattributed.
Perhaps this is why he provides no scriptural attributions for them. Because there aren't any.)
To answer it, we must ask four additional questions that get at the logic of the atonement.
1. What Is Death?
Paul writes, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Death is the punishment for rebellion against God: when Scripture talks about it, it’s not merely a biological category. God warned Adam that, if he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). Adam didn’t drop dead the day he ate the fruit, but he was cast out of Eden.
Death, then, is fundamentally separation from God. And in its finality, death is eternity in hell. God won’t be entirely absent; for the damned he will be present as judge and punisher. (We don't wish to make our post examine two different articles by two different authors, especially on an completely unrelated topic. But since the author links to someone else to document his assertion, we will briefly detour.
The linked article attempts to prove the idea that God will be present during punishment by quoting Revelation 14:10. But when we read a larger context, we find differently:
It's a minor point, and there may well be verses that support the Father's presence as a punisher of all those in hell, but this passage does not. We mention it because it speaks to the author's sloppiness.)
2. Why Is Hell Eternal?
Eternal punishment is fitting for at least two reasons. First, God made us to exist forever, so the choice to remain in rebellion and unbelief has eternal consequences. Second, sins committed against an infinite Creator are infinitely grievous. It would therefore seem that, to take our eternal sentence, Jesus would need to be eternally punished. (No, Jesus did not take our eternal sentence, and Jesus was not eternally punished. The Father did not punish Him at all.)
From this we might deduce that either Jesus is still being punished by the Father (which the Bible denies), or his death isn’t sufficient to atone for our sins, since he didn’t receive the eternal punishment we deserve. (Mr. Menkis, which is it? Is it His death, or His suffering? You're mixing the two.)
There’s a third option. (There's a fourth option: Jesus wasn't punished by the Father.)
(So the author now proceeds to invent an entirely fanciful explanation, devoid of scriptural reference...) Sin’s punishment is eternal in relation to time, yet it is also infinite in a qualitative sense. In other words, there’s a temporal component to the punishment for sin as well as a completeness component. Imagine a teacher who punishes a student by making him write “I will not call people names” 100 times. Regardless of whether it takes 30 minutes or three hours, the punishment is not complete until he writes the sentence for the hundredth time. Something similar is going on with the atonement. If we make a distinction between the duration of punishment and the complete pouring out of God’s wrath on sin, we can understand how Christ, an infinite being, took our punishment without spending eternity under God’s wrath. (No, Jesus did not take our punishment. He was never under God's wrath.)
3. What Is Propitiation?
This word “propitiation” is used four times in the New Testament (Rom. 3:23–25; Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). It refers to a sacrifice that appeases or turns away God’s righteous wrath. (Not exactly.
Re. 14:9-11 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”Who is being punished in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb? The ones who received the mark of the beast. Since many sinners have lived and died throughout history without the mark of the beast, these particular unfortunate souls are in a unique category.
It's a minor point, and there may well be verses that support the Father's presence as a punisher of all those in hell, but this passage does not. We mention it because it speaks to the author's sloppiness.)
2. Why Is Hell Eternal?
Eternal punishment is fitting for at least two reasons. First, God made us to exist forever, so the choice to remain in rebellion and unbelief has eternal consequences. Second, sins committed against an infinite Creator are infinitely grievous. It would therefore seem that, to take our eternal sentence, Jesus would need to be eternally punished. (No, Jesus did not take our eternal sentence, and Jesus was not eternally punished. The Father did not punish Him at all.)
From this we might deduce that either Jesus is still being punished by the Father (which the Bible denies), or his death isn’t sufficient to atone for our sins, since he didn’t receive the eternal punishment we deserve. (Mr. Menkis, which is it? Is it His death, or His suffering? You're mixing the two.)
There’s a third option. (There's a fourth option: Jesus wasn't punished by the Father.)
(So the author now proceeds to invent an entirely fanciful explanation, devoid of scriptural reference...) Sin’s punishment is eternal in relation to time, yet it is also infinite in a qualitative sense. In other words, there’s a temporal component to the punishment for sin as well as a completeness component. Imagine a teacher who punishes a student by making him write “I will not call people names” 100 times. Regardless of whether it takes 30 minutes or three hours, the punishment is not complete until he writes the sentence for the hundredth time. Something similar is going on with the atonement. If we make a distinction between the duration of punishment and the complete pouring out of God’s wrath on sin, we can understand how Christ, an infinite being, took our punishment without spending eternity under God’s wrath. (No, Jesus did not take our punishment. He was never under God's wrath.)
3. What Is Propitiation?
This word “propitiation” is used four times in the New Testament (Rom. 3:23–25; Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). It refers to a sacrifice that appeases or turns away God’s righteous wrath. (Not exactly.
- hilaskomai [Heb 2:17 and Luke 18:13] refers to satisfyingly the wrath of someone, which turns away the impending action.
- hilastérion [Rom 3:25 and Heb 9:5] refers to the place where the offering is given [the mercy seat].
- hilasmos, [1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10] is an offering to appease.
We believe that using the word "atonement" in reference to Jesus is incorrect. Propitiation COMPLETELY turns away God's wrath, whereas the Hebrew "atonement" [כָּפַר] means "to cover over."
The OT atonement did not wipe Israel clean of sin, it simply "covered over" it. He. 10:4 reads: ...because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. "Take away" is remove, or forcibly cut off.
The OT sacrifices could not remove sin. That's why we need Jesus' death and resurrection. We need something more than "atonement." Christ's death on the cross [propitiation] is the greater and all-sufficient work of completely carrying away and erasing our sin.)
This sacrifice changes his relationship to us from one of anger to one of favor.
Each passage that contains this word teaches that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. As the perfect sacrifice, his death is able to reconcile God to sinners. The Bible tells us this was a one-time event. Jesus took our punishment in its fullness; the sacrifice won’t happen again, nor is it an ongoing reality (Heb. 9:24–28). (Again, the Father did not punish Jesus! This passage does not teach this. Let's quote the relevant verse from the author's unquoted citation, verse 28:
He. 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."Take away" is ἀναφέρω (anapheró), to lift up on oneself, to take upon oneself, i. e. to place on oneself anything as a load to be upborne, to sustain: τάς ἁμαρτίας i. e. by metonymy, their punishment, Hebrews 9:28...
Jesus' sacrifice was that of a burden-bearer. He carried the weight of our sin to the cross like one would carry a load upon their shoulders. He "took away" our punishment. The charges against us were nailed to the cross [Col. 2:14].)
This leads back to our dilemma: Can Jesus be our propitiation if he is not eternally punished? (The dilemma is non-existent, based on a proper understanding of what Jesus did for us on the cross. Jesus was never punished by the Father.)
To answer, we must ponder the reality of hell.
(...)
Preach the Strange, Logical Gospel
The gospel makes sense. (Unfortunately, the author's presentation does not.)
God doesn’t contradict himself or commit logical fallacies in his plan of salvation. And our presentation of the gospel should make sense to our hearers. (It should? On what basis would the natural mind accept the spiritual implications of the salvation message? What Bible verse teaches this?)
The better we understand the logic of the gospel and apply it in our own lives, the clearer we can explain it to others. Of course, not everyone who hears the gospel believes. But everyone who hears it should at least be able to grasp its message. (1Co. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.)
When we preach the gospel, it may seem strange, offensive, or downright idiotic to our listeners. (We just read, ...the gospel should make sense to our hearers. Sir, which is it?)
But it should never be incoherent, self-contradictory, or illogical if we’ve taken the time to meditate on the stunning logic of God’s salvation plan.
(The author's conundrum descends from an errant idea, that the Father punished Jesus. In fact, the author failed to supply any biblical reference at all that the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The author provides scriptural documentation for ancillary ideas, but his central assertions are left unattributed.
Perhaps this is why he provides no scriptural attributions for them. Because there aren't any.)
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