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Wednesday, February 8, 2017

Battalogeo & a Heavenly Prayer Language - by Eric Davis

Found here. My comments in bold.
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In my continuing quest for a biblical argument for cessationism, I turn to Mr. Eric Davis to see if he is up to the challenge. Unfortunately, he is not.

It is interesting and telling that Mr. Davis doesn't quote a single Scripture regarding tongues, nor does he cite any of the many thoughtful biblical arguments in favor of tongues. He essentially constructs a series of straw men ("...some suppose...") as if these are the best pro-tongues arguments available.

It is somewhat concerning that these kinds of presentations are satisfying to cessationists, who supposedly value the Bible.

See our post on tongues and on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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I remember the first few times hearing about a heavenly prayer language. Some called it praying, or speaking, in tongues. Not long after coming to faith in Christ, a group of friends took me to a few meetings where this would be happening. We gathered in homes, the forest, and a local church to experience these supposed, Holy-Spirit-induced prayers. What I witnessed was fairly similar: various individuals caught in a trance-like state, speaking, or praying (I wasn’t sure), out loud using non-language noises in somewhat of a repeated fashion. The prayers/noises sounded something like, “Hasha-batta, kala-hasha, nashta-kala, hasha-batta..”

Subsequent to that, others reported that they were having similar experiences during private prayer to God. They said that the Holy Spirit gave them an ability to pray in non-language sounds (I don't think charismatics describe their tongues as "non-language sounds.")

as a means of infusing their prayers, and encouraged me to seek this out. About one year later, I observed some of the same, a supposed Holy-Spirit-infused prayer language, while attending one of the largest, and most well-known charismatic churches in the nation. These were some of my first experiences with this prayer language phenomena. I soon discovered that it is a widely practiced phenomena (in various forms) both inside and outside Christendom.

I, like many, began to ask: Is this prayer phenomena in Scripture? And, if so, what does Scripture say about it? (Yes, indeed. What does Scripture say about it? We shall not find this out from this author, unfortunately.)

Today’s post will not attempt to exhaustively answer those questions. Nate Busenitz has thoroughly demonstrated, (Emphasis added.)

for example, that the gift of “tongues” was the miraculous ability to speak a previously unlearned foreign language during the foundation, apostolic days of the church. Additionally, it’s been shown that Scripture does not support the idea of an angelic language (In this link Mr. Busenitz does not "thoroughly demonstrate" that there isn't a such a thing as a personal prayer language.)

or multiple different kinds of spiritual gifts called tongues. (In this particular link Mr. Busenitz imposes a viewpoint upon Sam Storms that there are two types of tongues. He writes, "Storms’ view—that there are two types of tongues in the New Testament [only one of which consisted of human languages]—is fairly common among continuationists." However, Mr. Busenitz does not document this assertion with any quote from Mr. Storms.) 

Instead, this post will briefly look at the idea of praying in a supposed Spirit-induced, heavenly and/or angelic prayer language as it pertains to prayer. To do so, we will look at one verse: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words” (Matt 6:7).

The word translated “meaningless repetition,” is from the Greek verb, battalogeo. Similar to the TDNT (1:597), A.T. Robertson comments that the word carries the idea of “stammerers who repeat the words,” “babbling or chattering,” “empty repetition” (Matt 6:6). John Nolland says it’s the idea of the repetition of either intelligible or unintelligible sounds in order to multiply effectiveness (Quoted by Osborne, Matthew, 226). Many commentators agree that the prefix, “batta,” is onomatopoetic. In other words, the prefix sounds similar to the thing it describes: prayers sounding something like, “batta, batta.” Being onomatopoetic does not mean that the word exhaustively covers everything which it describes, but the general idea.

Christ prohibits praying in such a way for two reasons. First, because it is characteristic of Gentiles (Matt 6:7). Praying in a way that piles up language, or non-language, unintelligible, or babbling sounds is prayer characteristic of those who do not know God. Second, because our heavenly Father already knows what we need before we think to pray about it (Matt 6:8).

What are some examples of babbling prayer, characteristic of the Gentiles?

We could talk about Buddhist prayer wheels, the Roman Catholic practice of prayer candles, Ave Maria’s and Pater Noster’s, and prayers of the Rosary, for example. We could also discuss the Greek culture in which similar things were observed (and what the Apostle Paul corrects in 1 Corinthians 12-14). At various points in Phaedrus, for example, Socrates is praising the idea of ecstatic mania. A form of non-language, ecstatic prayer was reported to have been practiced through out-of-their-mind, ecstatic oraclers at Delphi and Dodona. (http://sparks.eserver.org/books/plato-phaedrus.pdf, 7). Many more examples could be cited of ancient and contemporary pagan practice.

But more to the point: When Christ forbids such prayer, we would have to include the popular idea of speaking in tongues as a private or heavenly prayer language. (We would not accede to such a speculative conclusion. It is a long stretch indeed to suppose that Jesus was preemptively refuting "heavenly tongues.")

As it pertains to the idea of a Spirit-given prayer language, whether heavenly, angelic, or something else, Christ’s command is clarifying: God’s people are not to pray in such a way that resembles babbling repetition of sounds, whether they are supposed to be intelligible or not. He forbids the act of praying in a way, for example, that would resemble a prayer in the form of, “Batta, batta.” Instead, biblical prayer is to have normal, human intelligibility. (Unjustified conclusion. We do not know that "heavenly tongues" is babbling. I am not familiar with any charismatic who believes their prayer language is babbling.)

In prayer, we need not seek anything beyond simple language expression. (This is incorrect. 1Co. 14:5: I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.)

Thus, it is unnecessary to feel the need to rev up our spiritual engine in order to perform at some higher level. (Charismatics do not believe that tongues are a "higher level.")

Nor ought we seek supposed higher blessings or baptisms of the Spirit to attain elevated spiritual experience so that God takes notice or we perceive ourselves on a higher plane. (Notice the author's pejorative characterization. We are to seek the gifts of the Spirit:
1Co. 14:1: Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
We are to be filled with the Holy Spirit:
Ep. 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
Lk. 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!
So most certainly we are commanded to seek out and ask for more of the Spirit and His gifts.

However, none of this implies a "higher plane" or an "elevated spiritual experience." Nor does it have anything to do with making "God take notice." This is plain dishonesty. It is the way the political Left debates, by misrepresenting and mischaracterizing their opponents' positions so as to invalidate them. This is known as a straw man.)

Christian prayer is simply a natural, genuine, intelligible communication to God. (Wrong. In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. Romans 8:26)

As such, prayer is something available to every single one of God’s people: those eloquent in speech, those not; those who have much to say, those who do not; those with many degrees, those with none; the young, the old, and of every language and articulateness.

Eight brief, closing remarks are needed.

First, the biblical spiritual gift often associated with a tongues-type prayer language is better called “languages.” The biblical gift of languages was the miraculous ability to speak an unlearned language that is known by others for the purpose of exalting Christ and building up others during the foundational, apostolic era of the church. This gift ceased with the apostolic era in the first century as the church foundation was established in Christ’s progressive building of the church (Matt 16:18). (Undocumented assertion.)

Second, there are various arguments against this position. For example, on one occasion I was faced with an argument along these lines: “I’ve seen/experienced the speaking in tongues as a prayer language. You cannot say it did not happen. It did happen, therefore, it’s something we should pursue. If I experience it, you cannot deny it. I see a giraffe out my window, for example, you cannot tell me it’s not a giraffe.” (As if this was some sort of powerful argument? Does the author really think this represents the typical reasoning of his theological opponents?)

But the argument fails on the grounds that experience is superior to Scripture. The unspoken reasoning is: “I saw/experienced/heard X, therefore, X is true and should be pursued as a practice of our faith.” But the biblical reasoning must go: “Though I saw/experienced/heard X, I must rigorously test it up against a hermeneutically sound interpretation of Scripture. If X conflicts, it is X that is abandoned as a practice of our faith, not Scripture. Scripture alone is the authority.” Put another way for the sake of argument: “I think I saw a giraffe. Scripture says that giraffes do not exist. Therefore, I saw something, but it was not a giraffe.”

Though we may experience interesting spiritual phenomena, if it is not supported by a sound interpretation of Scripture, then it is not to be pursued as something of the Christian faith.

Third, many who practice this do not suppose they’re engaging in a Gentile/pagan practice (Matt 6:7). Instead, they presume to feel close to God. (Undocumented assertion.)

However, regardless of feeling, Scripture, not feelings, determines true spirituality and what closeness to God means. But we can go to Scripture to learn how to express closeness to God. In portions of the Psalms, for example, we can observe some of the most profound, genuine experiences of closeness to God. As such, they are expressed and inspired in normal, intelligible, human language.

Fourth, some have said, “But the practice of a private, heavenly, or angelic, prayer language is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14.” But in that passage, the Apostle is correcting non-language, unintelligible utterance and the abuse of the language gift. (The correction of the expression of tongues, as Paul was doing, is not a refutation of tongues. In addition, the passage, which the author does not quote, in no way corrects "angelic" prayer language. In fact, the entire passage is devoted to the intelligible [prophecy] vs. unintelligible [tongues]. Paul is contrasting the thing no one else understands and therefore cannot be edified by [tongues], and the things they can understand and be encouraged and comforted by [prophecy])

Fifth, an additional argument goes: “This private tongues prayer language is not hurting anyone. It’s between me and God, therefore, what’s the problem?” (Again, the author "quotes" unattributed quasi-arguments as if they were representative of what charismatics believe. Again, it is represented as the best of what the charismatics offer.)

But, we are not to justify an act on whether or not we perceive benefit or injury. An action is right or wrong on the basis of God’s word. If God’s word does not teach something, then we are to follow in step, for his glory and his honor, regardless of how we perceive it may or may not hurt others, or how it may or may not make us feel.

Sixth, some suppose that the Holy Spirit is giving them profound words; words of heaven which are too spiritually superior for known human language. (Undocumented assertion.)

But there are no more profound words given by the Holy Spirit than what he has already given us in God-given, sacred Scripture in normal, human intelligibility. If someone desires to pray and speak lofty, spiritual words to God, we have the Psalms, for example, which contain many model prayers expressing profound love for God. On top of that, every single word in the 150 Psalms was inspired in an intelligible language by the Holy Spirit (normal intelligibility, with noun-verb-object, structure). Furthermore, when we observe the prayers of Scripture (i.e. 1 Kings 8, John 17), in every instance, whether Christ or others, individuals are praying in normal, human intelligibility. ( And now the author has embarked on his own quasi-argument which has nothing at all to do with refuting tongues.)

Similarly, there is no instance of a heavenly-type prayer language in Scripture.

(1Co. 14:15-17:
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 You 
may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
1 Co. 14:2:
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
Now remember that the author thinks that tongues must be actual languages. However, Paul is describing a situation here where someone is speaking in tongues, but what is being said is not intelligible!)

If such a thing were to exist, we would expect (No, we wouldn't. In fact, the first century "other languages" approach to tongues yields us no examples of what tongues speakers said either.)

to observe it in various charged moments of redemptive history, such as Jesus in his emotional high priestly prayer of John 17 or his distraught prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane or David upon hearing the Davidic Covenant or Psalm 119 or Lamentations, to name a few examples. But we do not. And we can rest confident that the most profound expressions of worship to God are to be done in God-given, human languages with normal intelligibility. (Can you imagine? The author thinks that a private prayer language would be noted at certain crucial moments in history, and because they're not, well, somehow that means it doesn't exist. Let the preposterousness of that sink in a moment.)

Seventh, being created in the image of God is telling. From the dawn of creation, we notice that one of humanity’s image-bearing attributes is rational, intelligible language. The first humans interact with God in their pre-Fall state using that God-given gift. We can expect, as observed all the way to Christ’s incarnation and into heaven, that intelligible language will be the way to interact with God. (This is puerile, a non-biblical argument that quotes no Scripture or scriptural principle.)

Eighth, the question often goes: “If this is not from God, then from where does this phenomena originate?” Perhaps the power of the flesh showing itself in an individual wanting a memorable spiritual experience. Or, perhaps, an individual wanting to be close to God, but mistaking what that looks like. And in some cases, we must not rule out Satan (2 Cor 11:14-15). (A Scripture that is not discussing tongues.)

So, though we might practice speaking in tongues as a private, heavenly language, such a thing is not from God since Scripture does not support it. (We just quoted Paul who refers to praying with his spirit.)

Thus, it is not to be pursued by believers. In fact, the ideas of things like non-language prayer, heavenly language prayer, or prayer sounding something like, “Batta, batta,” is what Christ forbids, in part, because it characterizes the pagans who do not know God.

As Charles Quarles writes: “Although many modern Christians address God in an ecstatic ‘prayer language,’ the practice has no root in the teaching or example of Jesus. Jesus seems to have viewed such practices in paganism as inappropriate for his disciples” (Sermon on the Mount, 184). (Why would Jesus teach on tongues? He didn't teach on any spiritual gifts at all, because the Spirit had not yet come!)

Finally, think of it this way. Picture yourself standing in front of Christ seated on his throne in heaven. What would you say? We would be on our knees, humbled, in awe, in worship, saying, if we could say anything at all, something like, “Oh Lord! Thank you! Thank you for dying on the cross! I love you!”

We would not begin speaking to him in a non-language babble. (Whaa? Why would we? In heaven there is no need of tongues: 1Co. 13:8 "...where there are tongues, they will be stilled...") 

Let’s remember that prayer is the great privilege of speaking to His Majesty; the risen Christ who is seated on his throne in heaven, reigning as our Sovereign Lord. We are not physically there. But we get to speak to him nonetheless. This is to be an action of humbled, human intelligibility.

So let’s enjoy communing with our good God in prayer. We can simply, and reverently, speak to him with plain language. Doing so ascends to the highest form of spirituality. (I thought this was a bad thing? Remember the author saying, "Thus, it is unnecessary to feel the need to rev up our spiritual engine in order to perform at some higher level."

It is truly astonishing how vapid the author's arguments are. But this is what people like him are left with when they are left to speculate about things absent the Bible. And that's what's happening here. Not a single relevant Bible quote. No discussion of the key passages that teach on tongues. No biblical teaching at all. )

12 comments:

  1. Greetings Rich.

    Your misguided "quest" for a biblical argument against the continued existence of the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit is purposely designed to fail. You have crafted the debate in such a way that no other reasoning will sway you from your talking points. This is the hole in your argument you seem to not understand. The Bible clearly states that tongues will cease, when is not mentioned. Did it end in 100 A.D., 120 A.D., 200 A.D. or even later? I do not know, the Bible does not give us a date, but it has ceased. To claim that these miraculous events are happening today right under our noses is childish at best and heresy at worse.

    Your labeling of modern day "tongues" as a supernatural event of the likes of Acts 2 is your undoing. You can banter on about these so called miracles but without physical evidence to these claims of physical events you are just spinning your wheels.

    Again, the reason no one can fulfill your quest is because tongues ceased sometime AFTER the Bible was completed. The canon is closed, God has spoken. You will find no answer to your question other than 1st Corinthians 13:8. The church does not owe you or any other non-cessationist a neat and tidy verse to satisfy your childish demand. Just take your heads out of the sand.

    If you feel incomplete in your walk with God pick up your Bible. (2nd Timothy 3:16-17)

    Thinking that you are somehow channeling a supernatural message or interpreting a supernatural message is playing with the occult.

    So to all tongue talkers either open your eyes to the truth or grow a backbone and admit that your emperor is naked.

    I look forward to your reply.

    ReplyDelete
  2. From you I will no longer require a biblical argument. At this point, a logical one would suffice. Actually, any argument at all would be welcome from you.

    It's funny. I have taken great pains to examine and refute arguments regarding the cessationist view. I have written many posts considering the claims of cessationists and examined their logic and the Bible verses they use and misuse.

    You have never bothered to answer a single one of them. You have never addressed any point I've raised with a reasoned, referenced response. You have never answered back and shown where my thinking is biblically faulty or why my analyses are wrong. Not once.

    You simply repeat your assertions as if they're self evident. That's it. I painstakingly examine the evidence, and you parrot back your original point.

    Not good enough. Not even close.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Greetings Rich.

      Please excuse the long delay.

      I have most surely addressed your points and analyses. Can you not see from your lack of a cogent response to my remarks that you are hopelessly backed into a logical corner? You claim physical events are happening but when confronted with simple requests for physical evidence you protest.

      Why should someone need to fulfill your “quest” for a scriptural rebuttal to a question that instead clearly demands physical proof? Should we offer a scriptural answer to modern day flat-earthers who present Ezekiel 7:2 as proof of a flat earth? Should we ignore the obvious since we can not present a neat and tidy verse that states the earth is not flat? If someone will insist that heavier than air travel is impossible, must we prove the opposite with a textbook or can we simply point to the planes overhead?

      Your defense is the opposite of Jesus' answer when confronted in John 10:37-39. He told them to at least believe their own eyes if not His words. You on the other hand expect us to accept your non-cessationist theory and ignore what is clearly before our eyes.....cessationism. Your “quest” is but a purposeful attempt to distract from the illogical basis of this belief system. You are fooling no one.

      It is clear that the non-cessationist emperor is naked, since none of his subjects can agree on what he is wearing.

      I look forward to your reply.

      Delete
    2. There you go again. Simply repeat your points.

      As I mentioned, I would simply accept a logical argument from you at this point.

      "Ah, I've backed him into a logical corner," you mumble to yourself. Yes, of course. I apparently need to supply you physical evidence, and you point to "what is clearly before our eyes... cessationism." That is, your physical evidence is, well, nothing.

      The hilarity of that being represented as physical evidence cannot escape even you.

      Delete
  3. Greetings Rich.

    Thank you for your prompt non-answer.

    Again, do you have a reasonable response to my view of your “quest”?

    You have proven quite well that the miraculous was active during the early church, which we take on faith from the scriptures. But what of the present, are we to put our faith into CLAIMS of supernatural events or the EVIDENCE of supernatural events. Christianity is reasonable. Non-cessationism is but a theory that has failed the test of both reason and common sense.

    I do not offer nor can I offer physical evidence of something that is not physically happening. It is you by virtue of the claims that the burden rests upon. He who claims, proves.

    This is the “corner” that you can not ignore. No amount of banter can get you out of it. It is time for the non-cessationists to show their hand or fold. Jesus and his followers had no trouble proving their claims . You and your ilk simply refuse to believe the “corner” even exist.

    I look forward to your reply.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Arguments from nothing are neither common sense nor are they reasonable. Further, neither reason nor common sense is a biblical argument. You cannot supply a biblical argument, and your logical skills leave much to be desired. Thus you are left with nothing but your errant doctrine.

    A biblical argument requires no physical manifestation. What the Bible requires and what is actually happening are two different things. If there is no prophecy happening today and the Scriptures require it, then the situation needs to change in the church.

    That is why we need the biblical argument. Not your version of logic. Not your arguments from silence. Not what your pastor tells you. The biblical argument, sir, something you seem unacquainted with.

    It appears you have but a single scripture, 1 cor. 13:10 to rely upon. You have never quoted it, or any scripture for that matter.

    If you have something else I would like to know what it is. From the Bible, please.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Greetings Rich.

    Thank you for your reply

    The existence of the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit (miraculous) does not need a biblical defense. If it is real, it can not be hidden. When they come there will be no debates or quests to prove or disprove them. Their reality will be before us. They will be SELF-EVIDENT, OBVIOUS and UNQUESTIONABLE. You do not seem to understand this simple truth. Your defense of the miraculous happening right under our noses is mind numbing.

    When the Jews refused the words of Jesus being the Son of God (John 10:34-38) He simply responded by telling them to accept the OBVIOUS proof of the miraculous. When John the Baptist requested assurance about Him being the one to come (Matthew 11:2-3), Jesus did not offer a scriptural discourse but told him to remember the SELF-EVIDENT miraculous signs he witnessed. When Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had been raised from the dead (John 20:24-29) Jesus simply showed him the UNQUESTIONABLE proof of the miraculous. All simple reviews of the evidence.

    When modern day charismatics are confronted with the lack of evidence to their claims of the miraculous, what is their response? “Well prove to me that it can't happen” is rather telling.

    The miraculous is meant to prove a truth. If a miraculous event needs a biblical defense it must not be very miraculous. When the miraculous returns (which I believe will happen) you and I will not be in debate but awe.

    You can attempt to spin the question of modern day miracles all you want but you are fooling no one.
    All you have proven is that the manifestations were happening during the early church and nothing more. It is you who argues from silence. You are simply attempting to shift the burden of proof with your false dichotomy.

    The Israelites had no scriptures that told them that the manna from heaven was to stop, but it did. (Joshua 5:12) It stopped without warning. All we have recorded is the mention that it stopped, nothing more. It would have been absurd for them to insist that without a biblical argument proving that God commanded the manna to cease, it must still be active. They would have starved clinging to their biblical quest.

    There is no biblical requirement for the miraculous to be active today. If you have something else I would like to know. From the Bible, please.

    I look forward to your reply.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I find it extremely odd that after dozens of exchanges you clearly have yet to understand what I believe. I have written thousands of words where I systematically lay out what I believe and why. But for some reason, you are still mystified.

    Worse, you have yet to take a single point I've offered and examine it point by point, like what I do in my refutations of cessationist articles.

    And it is extremely frustrating when you go off on some unrelated tangent (like your odd manna reference).

    I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do expect you to try to understand my position. But you do not, and thus when you respond to something I wrote it is as if you are on another planet.

    And it does you no credit at all to simply return my points back at me with no documentation, logical process, or reference. That is simply contradiction, and is puerile.

    There is a biblical requirement for the miraculous to be active today. And if you had actually read my essays, or even your Bible, you would know these:

    1Co. 14:26: "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church."

    1Co. 14:5 "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy."

    1Co. 12:31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

    1Co. 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

    Ro. 11:29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

    Ro. 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

    Unfortunately, our exchanges have borne no fruit at all. No edification, no increase in faith or service to the Lord. They are fleshly, quarrelsome, and unspiritual. They must end now.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Greeting Rich.

    Thank you for your prompt reply.

    I understand quite well your views on this issue. You are by no means the first person to pursue this line of reasoning. Your approach is simple.

    The miraculous was available to the first century church.
    There are no direct verses that state it would not continue.
    Hence the miraculous must be available today.
    Either the Bible is false or we are quenching the Holy Spirit.

    This is your false dichotomy.

    My use of the ceasing of the miraculous in Joshua 5:12 was not a unrelated tangent but a clear example of a forty year period of miraculous events ending without a biblical warning.

    I HAVE not, nor WILL not, nor CAN not offer you a biblical rebuttal about events that are not happening.

    I will admit that I am “mystified” by your defense of this subject. You seem to be willfully turning a blind eye to to a painfully obvious hole in your argument. Unwilling to see the prairie for the lack of trees.

    Your remarks about me not examining “point by point” your “refutations of cessationist articles” are accurate. I approach your theory on the miraculous the same as I do with the Catholic assertion that their communion wine is miraculously turning into physical and literal human blood (transubstantiation). Such speculation is based on John 6:51-56 and also can not be defended by biblical text alone. Demanding a verse that says its not real blood is not a valid rebuttal. And no this is not a unrelated tangent.

    The six verses you use as proof text are at best indirect and are not calls for their continuation. They are Paul's attempt to bring order to what was a new and confusing experience. I suspect the same confusion will happen when the miraculous does return. To be fair, a scripture does not need a mention of continuation to be valid today. Never the less these verses are a far cry from a command for them to exist today.

    I disagree that our exchanges have borne no fruit. In our current culture that disdains reasonable debate and mocks spiritual matters, it is refreshing that we can verbally spar without labeling the other a fascist, bigot or racist. If I am wrong, those viewing these posts will see the wisdom in your quest and the folly of my rebuttal.

    Rich, I do understand the basis of your position but it is your refusal to consider any other approach on this subject that I question. Again, the existence of the miraculous is not an intangible or strictly academic issue. There are physical aspects to the subject that can not be ignored. Quest or no quest.

    I look forward to your reply.

    ReplyDelete
  8. "Either the Bible is false or we are quenching the Holy Spirit" is not true, so there is no false dichotomy. Other reasons include ignorance, false teaching, apostasy, and disobedience.

    Joshua 5:12 does not help you: "The manna stopped..."

    Transubstantiation is easily demonstrated to be false from Scripture, so your argument falls by its own weight.

    "Indirect?" There is nothing indirect about any of these Scriptures. Several of them are commands. You are being instructed on how to believe and act by Paul. There's nothing vague, uncertain, or debatable about the clear commands of Scripture.

    It's amazing to me how easily you dismiss Scripture as though it doesn't apply, it's for a bygone era, it's not for me, it's not what I believe. There are whole sections of the Bible that apparently aren't relevant. Perhaps it would be easier for you if we simply edited out the irrelevant stuff? After all, if it's not for today, then there's really no point in reading it, right?

    The ONLY reason I can see that remains that prevents you from embracing Scripture is lack of faith. You simply don't believe the Bible where it contradicts your denomination's doctrinal stance.

    That is unfortunate.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Greetings Rich.

    Thank you again for your reply.

    On April 2nd you stated, “If there is no prophecy happening today and the scriptures require it, then the situation needs to change in the church.” This is your false dichotomy. If the Bible teaches it and it is not happening the church must be quenching it with false teaching, apostasy, ignorance and disobedience. Can you not see this? Are you so blinded by your quest that you can not see another option?

    We are not meant to have faith IN THE miraculous but the miraculous is meant to bring us to faith. Moses, Jesus and the Apostles presented the miraculous to the unbelieving so the world would have faith.

    John 10:34-38
    Matthew 11:2-3
    John 20:24-29
    2nd Corinthians 12:12
    Exodus 4:1-9

    In other words, the miraculous does not need us to believe it exist but it exist so that we can believe. Your theory is the miraculous needs us to believe first then it will come. This is faulty cause and effect.

    Joshua 5:12 is not a command or warning for the miraculous event to stop but simply a mention that it stopped. The manna was a miraculous event lasting 40 years. It stopped with no verse to prove it was ever meant to stop. Therefore my point stands, the miraculous does not need a scripture telling us of its temporary nature.

    I never dismiss scripture. There are many things in the Bible that I struggle to understand and rather wish was not there but I accept them never the less. I do indeed want your view to be correct but if this is your best argument then you are wrong. The Bible is above all else reasonable. Your theory is but blind faith.

    I look forward to your reply.

    p.s.

    Do you have any articles on modern day tithing? If possible, I would like to know your thoughts on this issue.

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  10. The first half of your reply addresses things I have not said.

    Maybe you should read Joshua 5:12: "The manna stopped..." That is the sole basis needed to determine a miraculous event stopping.

    I wasn't theorizing about editing the Bible. I was pointing out that you seem to want to edit it when you set aside large portions of it because they supposedly aren't for today.

    I have already been working on a post regarding tithing, but it's been on the back burner.

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