This is a worship song? Ugh.
Verse 1
There is a river where goodness flows
There is a fountain that drowns sorrows
There is an ocean deeper than fear
The tide is rising, rising
Verse 2
There is a current stirring deep inside
It’s overflowing from the heart of God
The flood of heaven crashing over us
The tide is rising, rising
Bursting, bursting Up from the ground we feel it now
Bursting, bursting Up from the ground we feel it now
Chorus
We come alive in the river
We come alive in the river
We come alive in the river
We come alive in the river
BridgeSL: Jesus Culture has MANY problems
Break open prison doors
Set all the captives free
Spring up a well, spring up a well
Spring up the well in me
Nothing can stop this joy
We’re dancing in the streets
Spring up a well, spring up a well
Spring up the well in me
Me: I like a lot of their songs, usually they have some depth and doctrinal clarity. Not this one.
FS: I don't see what the problem is …
Vague, vapid lyrics that repeat and repeat, nothing that extols God directly, in fact a song that is a lot more about us than Him …
it has all the ingredients of most modern "worship" sings.
SL: yep Frank way to worldly for me
BH: I would advise caution when judging someone else's expression of worship!
Me: I will judge this expression of worship, because it is a poor expression of worship.
FS: Well, weak theology is weak (or absent) theology! This is not to say that there is no worth to these songs on a personal level, but in a corporate setting they fall woefully short, in my humble opinion.
Worship is not for us, but for HIM. Songs that are designed to make us feel all warm and fuzzy miss the mark. We are often blessed with such a feeling as a result of worshiping, but that feeling must never be the goal or barometer of worship. Worship is a sacrifice, meaning that it comes at a cost to us.
PH: That's right, it may be a great song to sing along with in the car on the way to work. In fact, its probably better than anything you'd hear on secular radio. However, I agree that it has no place in a worship service.
Me: My yardstick for worship songs is if they articulate they awesomeness of God, if they speak to a deep yearning for His presence and holiness, and if they give Him the glory due His name. They don't have to be particularly elegant or profound, but they do have to have something to say to Him and about Him that places Him front and center.
BH: "Worship is not for us, but for HIM." Precisely!!! Expressions of worship are directed toward Him. They are personal, intimate and honest. I am sure it puts a smile on his face when He hears others describe those heartfelt expressions as "vague" and "vapid"! He probably thinks, "Awe, aren't they cute when they are being critical!"
When our spouses speak sweet nothings into our ears, those word move us because of the relationship. They may appear to be "nothings" to others, but they are sweet to us. Dare I say they may even "extol" us! And to hear someone who may have overheard those "nothings" describe them as "vague" and "vapid" would certainly not make us very happy!
"Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation." Romans 12:15-16
BH: Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. Phil. 4:8
Me: We are not talking about personal expression, we are talking about corporate gatherings. Thus, the ways a church body expresses worship are different than the personal worship we are moved to express. There is no room in a worship service for arbitrary standards (or no standards) regarding worship songs.
Otherwise, anything goes, including the contents of the sermon, the choice of holy book that is valued (pr portions thereof), and even the interactions of the attendees toward each other. We cannot demand a standard for these other things and then say that whatever song we sing is fine.
IW: "I like a lot of their songs, usually they have some depth and doctrinal clarity. Not this one." So the point of this post is...what?
Me: My point is that this is a bad worship song.
ND: The only thing I would say is if they call it a worship song u have a point but they also have licence to make music other than worship and the word says do everything u do unto Him so the argument is circular
ND: Make a joyful noise and so on
Me: It is a worship song written for public worship. In The River - Jesus Culture Lyrics and Chords | Worship Together
AF: Indeed worship is for Him, not us. It's all about Jesus.
With that in mind....lyrics matter. Is this the best we can do in worshipping our Creator & Savior??? Really???
There are so many powerful worship song lyrics. Isn't the idea in corporate worship that we be honoring Him with Praise Thanksgiving & Worship?? All of us corporately.
I agree Rich. Those lyrics are weak. Thank you for bringing up the topic & discussion
AF: I am reminded of a worship song we endured several years ago where the worship leader shrieked at the top of her lungs "God is good""!!!" About 100 times...& no one else was singing along. It was a stunning display of self....which had nothing to do with corporate worship. Several people actually walked out of the church before the message.
TH: Huh, that's funny... I can worship Him alongside this song. I worship Him for His presence being the river or every other water like reference in these lyrics. Read it that way and see if that may sit better with you. It is certainly what the writer is conveying.
I have an easy time listening to this song and worshipping the Father. That is where these lyrics take me. I can look at every line here and my interpretation expresses itself by worshipping the Father. If you don't understand that, it's totally fine with me and if you'd like I can explain my interpretation to you easily. I can tell you with certainty that I am not alone in my thinking. But you know what? I am totally fine with people not getting our interpretation. Scripture is full of people judging other people's expressions of worship, but God liked it.
Judging other BELIEVER'S expressions of worship based upon your own revelations or interpretations is beneath you, Rich and we can't afford this in the Church today. When I read posts like this it saddens me to my core. What good is happening here? Were you truly wanting an answer to your question "This is a worship song?" or were you stating an opinion?
This looks like divisiveness and judgement. Or am I not seeing something? Seriously, please fill me in.
AF: I think this is a great discussion among Believers. I don't view it as divisive and I like it as a song. I think this discussion is an opportunity to discuss corporate worship. Somebody makes the decision what songs to sing at Church and most worship leaders I have met in my 62 years welcome input.
TH: From my perspective, and it may be flawed, there is little "discussion" happening. Looks like people labeling a song as, to quote you, "weak". My question is- Who are we to label someone else's form of worship? If it doesn't work for you... then don't listen to it. It works for countless others, in a corporate setting none the less! And to boil it all down, what do you think God thinks about it? Did he give you these parameters of "This qualifies as a worship song in private" and "That qualifies as a worship song in public"? How about "This is what qualifies as a 'weak' song."? How about "You can call this song 'weak' and say things like 'Is this the best we can do? Really?' when the lyrics don't say this or that"? Seems like a judgement to me. Not a discussion. Was there not a time during your life when the Church largely discredited something just to have God use that very thing in His Kingdom. Just think about the use of drums in a worship setting and the amount of push back from most churches or Rock Music as a whole. Today nearly everything on KLOVE would be considered Rock Music compared to the mainstream worship music in the 80s. Yet the Church judged and condemned and turned so many away and hurt so many more with trivial differences like this. That is not Jesus. Not the Jesus I know.
Me: My Lord deserves better than this song. It's fluff. Compare it to a hymn like "Solid Rock" and you'll see that excusing a substandard song is nothing more than accepting less than the best.
David would not accept anything but the most skilled musicians and the most profound expressions of worship. The Christian church lacks depth and power because it so willingly compromises. We've forgotten who we are because we've forgotten the fear of the Lord.
I will pass judgment, because the Scriptures command us to. Nothing less than the best is the standard toward which we strive.
TH: I'm curious what scriptures you are referring to?
"It's fluff" is your opinion, Rich. Is there even a slight chance that you could be missing something here or have you convinced yourself you are right?
Me: 1Th. 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
1Co. 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Jn. 7:24 Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.
Of course I could be wrong. It's just my opinion, based on decades of my Christian walk.
Me: As an aside, I'm a songwriter. I want my songs to carry the Presence, and carry people into the Presence. I spend a lot of time considering what God is saying for me to put in the words so that the Body will be edified and brought into worship.
My craft is not for the sake of writing cool songs, it is for for the glory of God. I've abandoned many a song when they've come up short.
Last thing. I know God is leading me somewhere when I'm writing, because things come to mind I wouldn't ordinarily be contemplating. It is this anointing that allows us to express God's heart. Without the anointing, I might as well not even write songs.
TH: And so this gives you the insight into how this song came about? The writers were writing a cool song? Did these writers definitely not go to the same place you do in your mind? Was this song not the result of an encounter with Holy Spirit? I can tell you that I have sat through your worship sessions. There have been songs that have felt anointed and songs that have not. But I don't feel the need to discredit the song when I don't connect with the lyrics. When I don't understand them. When I don't feel as if it was worshipping the Father.
TH: By the way- I have always been blessed when you worship. I seriously honor that gift and I hope you feel nothing less!
Me: Ty, is any and every song ever written permissible in church? Secular, Hindu, satanist songs? Would you as a watchman over the flock permit everything?
What about holy books? Is the Book of Mormon ok? Why or why not? If you draw the line at any of these things, then we are not far apart, because I simply am drawing the line in a slightly different place than you when it comes to worship music.
I demand excellence in the lyrics, you not as much. So where's your line, and couldn't the same charges you leveled at me for my line be leveled at you for your line? If Joe Blow can worship the Father to a Buddhist song, on what basis could you object it be included in a worship service? Otherwise you would be judgmental, right?
AF: Just to balance this a bit....our retired Pastor is 87 and pretty much thinks anything short of the old Hymms and singing Psalms is weak. lol I don't hear Rich saying that at all. It's not about me. Or any of us. It's about Jesus. And we as Individuals can pick you & choose what we listen to. However, corporate worship rises to a higher level. Worship leaders are teachers. A higher level of Biblical responsibility and accountability. I don't need to love every song I sing. But the words should be powerful Biblical messages of Worship, Thanksgiving and Praise!
EH: I just wanted to simply say that I love any song that sings praises to our loving Jesus. In the world today there are so many songs that sing of sadness and worldly things. I am overjoyed to hear worship in any form, as long as we all worship the same loving God, it makes my heart happy. smile emoticon Just as my heart sings when my five year old enters the room singing "Jesus loves me", my heart would sing if I heard someone singing this song as well. To me it's not the complexity of the lyrics, it is the heart behind it.
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