Chosen Before the Foundation of the World - By Mike Ratliff - comments exchanged

Excerpted from here. Our comments in bold.

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This frustrating and unenlightening conversation with Mr. Ratliff reveals a few things.

• He smokescreens behind elaborate explanations and an irrelevant story
• He appeals to his credentials
• He essentially denies that the quoted verses mean what they say, because of his superior (and secret) knowledge of the Greek

On top of all this, he makes assertions and assumptions that ultimately do not answer the questions posed to him.

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First the excerpt:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenliness in Christ, 4 Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the World for us to be Holy and Blameless in his sight in love, 5 have predestined us to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to th good pleasure of his will 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace by which he favored us in the beloved one. Ephesians 1:3-6

...He has “elected or chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.” The word translated as “chosen,” εξελεξατο, is speaking of God selecting a people for Himself and doing so before He had even created the world. However, this choosing has a purpose. These elected ones were chosen in Him ειναι ημας αγιους και αμωμους κατενωπιον αυτου εν αγαπη, which says, that God chose these elected ones to be holy and blameless before Him in love. . God intends to bring His elect all the way from spiritual death in sin to the forgiveness of sins in Christ, and finally to the elimination of all sin from their experience. The words “in love” do belong with this phrase. This explains the nature of the holiness and blamelessness to which these elect are called. God chose these elect in love.

End excerpt *****

Me: 

Paul and his contemporaries were the first to hope in Christ. This is not us. They were the predestined ones, not us. We were included when we believed (vs. 13).

Mike Ratliff: 

Rich, sorry, that is not what the text says. All who come to faith are those who were predestined, that is why they believe as God draws them to faith. (This is simply a bare restatement of his Calvinistic doctrine. Now comes the long, irrelevant anecdote...) 

 

I remember very well the day He drew me to faith. I was sitting in Sunday School class minding my own business, not participating in any way. I was a member of that church, but not a believer. I had walked an aisle during a revival when I was 8 or 9 years old and was baptized a week later. No one counseled me. No one prayed with me. I was not saved. My wife and I joined this church because I knew the pastor. He was a classmate of mine from High School. He and I were in Youth Group at our SBC church in our home town together. In any case, my parents knew I was lost and kept praying for me and so we ended up in that church. That Sunday morning I went to class intending to mind my own business and go home after church and watch NFL playoff football. However, as soon as the seat of my pants hit that chair it was like my Soul was hit with a bolt of lightning. I knew I was lost. I knew there was only one way out. I agonized over this all through Sunday School and Church. We went home. I have no idea what happened the rest of the day except that I agonized over my lost condition. When we got in the car to drive back to church that evening I prayed to the Father first that I knew I was a lost sinner who deserved nothing, but His wrath. I prayed that He would have the Lord Jesus save me and be my Lord. My joy from that moment was out of this world. I went forward at the invitation time and told my pastor and friend what had happened. He had me pray with my Sunday School teacher. I was baptized the following Sunday. (Sigh. Finally he's done.)

 

Now. as I look at these doctrines as well as the teachings of our Lord I see clearly that I was able to come to Christ only because the Father drew me to Him John 6:44. He predestined me and called me and saved me.

Me: 

Mr. Ratliff, I’m just looking at the plain language of Ephesians chapter one. Paul begins by using the pronouns “us/we,” but then turns to his readers in verse 13 and says “you.” “You” were included when “you” heard the truth and believed.

“Us/we” are not the same people as “you.” Therefore, “you” were not predestined, “you” were included later.

Regarding being drawn, read Jn. 12:32: “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” I doubt you believe everyone will be saved, so that means being drawn does not automatically lead to being saved.

These things are are right there for anyone to read.

Mike Ratliff: 

Again, sorry, but I must ask if you have studied Koine Greek. (Smug appeal to his credentials.) 

 

You are treading on shaky ground Rich when you become adamant about verb tenses, etc, when only looking at your translation. For instance Paul uses several instances where he says “we” were baptized into Christ before the foundation of the world. (We checked. There is only one instance, Ephesians 1:4.) 

 

Who is the we? That is ALL Christians. (Restating his assertion with no additional evidence.) 

 

He is writing to fellow believers and is including them the Greek verb tenses (How does Mr. Ratliff come to this conclusion? Well, because of his Calvinistic doctrine, which he uses to interpret the Bible.) 

 

he is using shows that the action is Past tense and is reflective, that is, it it is action being done to the subject of the sentence, believers, by God Himself. (Actually, this is the matter to be demonstrated, not just reasserted. And that's the point of our critique, that Paul was referring to different groups of believers in Ephesians chapter 1.) 

 

So, what am I saying? Before you start making statements like you made in your comment your really need to get an understanding of the Greek behind the English. (You see, it's not him, it's actually our ignorance. He pompously deems it necessary to insult those with whom he disagrees.) 

 

This is why I usually start with the Greek on my deeper Bible Studies. I have a Bible called The Complete Word Study New Testament. Every Word in every verse is covered. This is one of my tools.

Mike Ratliff: 

Rich, in reply to your comment on being drawn by God. This is another instance of knowing the Greek behind the words in your translation. (Let's cite Mr. Ratliff's touted reference, the Complete Word Study of the New Testament, pg. 911:

1670. Helkuo; or hé/ko, to draw, without necessarily connoting the notion of force as in suro (4951), to drag, although it may be implied (Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6; Rev. 12:4, cf. Acts 16:19; 21:30; James 2:6). Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing men unto Himself by His love, not force (John 6:44; 12:32). It is drawing to a certain point as in John 21:6, 11 indicating the drawing of the net while suro (4951) is merely dragging something after one. In John 21:8 he/kuo gives place to suro (4951) for nothing is intended there but the dragging of the net. 

 

So it seems clear that the act of drawing does not contain an element of compulsion or discounting the will of the one drawn.)

 

In the Greek it is very clear that when we are drawn to believe this is our New Birth, our regeneration. This is when we are Born Again. (Agreed. But the issue isn't this at all. The question to raise is, does being drawn contain compulsion? Mr. Ratliff would say yes, but he doesn't tell us why. He wants us to know "the Greek behind the words in your translation." But he explains absolutely nothing. 

 

And his reference refutes him.

 

So, we have two instances of being drawn. 

Jn. 6:44 “No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Jn. 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

The first [Jn. 6:44] is relied upon by Mr. Ratliff for his doctrine that everyone who is saved was predestined, therefore drawn by God to salvation apart from the human will. The second [Jn. 12:32] is the one we quoted to him and the one he chooses to explain away. Both verses contain the same Greek word helkó, which means induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

This of course means that the drawing in of God is not related to predestination and is not a proof for it. Rather, the drawing is the attractive power of God in order that some might respond and be saved.) 

So yes, I do believe that All God draws to the Son this way are saved. However, there is the General call of the Gospel when we preach it, and that is NOT the same thing at all. (Mr. Ratliff is as confused as he is emphatic. For unexplained reasons he separates the two references into the Calvinistic effectual call and the gospel call. The effectual call [corresponding to Jn. 6:44] is specific to the predestined and the gospel call [corresponding to Jn. 12:32] is general in that it does not involve actual salvation.

However, there is absolutely no justification for such a distinction between these two verses, since they are essentially the same thought. The reason Mr. Ratliff answers these questions this way is because he is forced to do so is in order to harmonize the Bible with his doctrines. That is, the Bible creates an obstacle for his Calvinism, so rather than revising his doctrine he explains away the Bible.

Then as icing on the cake, he closed the comment section. We hope this is because the Holy Spirit is weighing upon him and causing him to be uncomfortable in his error.)