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Having taken on the gargantuan task of responding to the first part of the author's article, we now attempt to gather up the strength to deal with the second half.
As we previously mentioned, this is a long and inelegantly constructed article, with muddled prose and many unsupported assertions and undeveloped ideas. The author rarely quotes Scripture, which is a typical, though perplexing tendency in the defenses of cessationism we have read.
Many of the points presented have been dealt with at length elsewhere in our blog, so for those we will simply provide links. Our article on prophecy, and another on prophecy and the closed canon, address most of the author's points below.
Our criteria for the cessationism debate is that the argument must
- be from the Bible
- Not appeal to contemporary expressions of charismata
- Not appeal to silence
- Not appeal to events or practices of history
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What makes a prophet
What makes a prophet a true spokesman for God?
The Old Testament prophets taught the basic truths and principles of God, and the facts and nuances of man's relationship with Him. They condemned sin, they brought comfort to the remnant, and conviction to those who sinned. They were invariably persecuted by the target portion of Israel, and most importantly, they spoke of things to come both near and far into the future Deuteronomy 18:15 -19 tells us of the nature of a true prophet. Verses 20 through 22 state that if one claiming to be a prophet speaks in the Lord's name, something God has not given him to say, or speaks in the name of other gods, then he is to die. (Should we execute false prophets?)
Thankfully, the Lord provides a method for identifying fallacies spread by would-be divine spokesmen. If what is said in His name does not come to pass, then God has not spoken it.
In Ezekiel there is an interesting scripture Ezek. 13:2-3 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, 'Hear the word of the LORD!'“ Thus says the Lord GOD: “Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! (sic, close quote.) God says one can actually say they are hearing from the Lord but it really is their own spirit.
In the OT prophets prophesied within three time frames . Their own time, for the 1st coming and the 2nd coming. (This would be true of predictive prophecy, but not all prophecy is predictive.
1Co. 14:3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort."Prophecy: προφητεία, ας, ἡ (prophéteia) (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority") – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).
The test of a prophet was his near prophecies which would be fulfilled in his own lifetime. Obviously, if it was beyond his lifetime, he wouldn't be around to have to answer for it. Prophecy was very specific in the Old and the New Testament. They would foretell God's revelation to the people and if one looks back at Biblical record to study a prophet's calling, it was God who picked them and they are often found arguing not to have the office. In contrast, there are now schools to train new prophets because the people desire this office. (1Co. 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. If the gift of prophecy can be eagerly desired, it can be acquired.
In fact, the prophetic gift is discipled by other prophets:
1Co. 14:32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.So there is nothing improper about having schools that teach prophecy.)
Another test used on would be prophets, found in Deuteronomy 13:1. In addition to whether or not their predictions came true is whether they used signs and wonders as tools to draw people to other gods or a different representation of God. (Such as Jannes and Jambres in 2 Timothy 3:8). Here, God is testing the people to see if they love only Him. This is probably the most overlooked scripture pertaining to examining the claims of those who profess supernatural powers that come from God. If they were to contradict the teaching that had already been revealed - which had provided knowledge of the one true God then they were seen as false prophets. God did not, and still does not tolerate false prophesying. If they wrong once, they are false, they were to be stoned. If this occurred today many if not all who lay claim to this position would have a quick end to their so called anointing! (Why doesn't stoning occur today, sir? If the provision regarding stoning doesn't apply, why then does the 100% accuracy standard still apply?)
Remember: just because one performs miracles, even inside a church, does not mean God is working. We should be more on guard inside the church than we would like to think. In 1 Corinthians 4:6, we are told no to go beyond what in written. If one contradicts the apostolic writings and teachings, then they are false (2 Cor.11:14). Those who go beyond the word having God speak to them directly with new revelation, become puffed up with self deception. (It seems the author is attempting to apply 1Cor. 4:6 to prophecy. We shall see it this bears out.
We might ask the author, how is it that Paul is telling the Corinthian church not to go beyond what is written if Paul is writing a letter to them that will be part of the Bible some day? And how is it possible that Paul would tell them not to go beyond what is written, but later in the very same letter is going to explain prophecy at length?)
There is something called humility that is practiced when one adheres to the same standard that everyone else does. (??)
Isa.8:16” bind up the testimony (of the Prophets) seal the law among my disciples”. (Moses) vs. 20 “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because their is no light in them.” This standard distinguishes a believer from an unbeliever. The test of the prophet was his conformity to the word of God, he condemns sin, he comforts the brethren, and he speaks of things in the near future and later than his life. A prophet, like an apostle, not only functioned as a gift, but as an office. (The author will never tell us the difference between the gift and the office.)
A prophet would declare God's will for his generation, addressing idolatry or lukewarmness. We see this personified in John the Baptist who warned and rebuked the people preparing the for the Messiah.
Jesus said there was no greater prophet than John the baptizer (of the old Testament dispensation) because he had the privilege to introduce the messiah.
In the Old Testament there were prophets who did not speak for God yet the people loved to hear what they had to say more than the true prophets words. Jer.23:16 “They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD”. A few verses later God calls them lying prophets, v. 30 “who steal from one another words supposedly from me.”
Isa. 29:10-13: “For the LORD has poured out on you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; and He has covered your heads, namely, the seers. The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I am not literate Therefore the LORD said: “Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men.”
When we see new prophets operate outside the written word (Does the author mean that a prophet is false when he speaks something not specifically stated in the Bible? Or is he saying that prophecy must conform to the biblical standard? Or is he saying that the written word is being violated in some way?)
or give new unknown meanings to the word they have become illiterate to expounding truth. (Is the author talking about pastors preaching new insights into the Word, or is he referring to prophetic utterance that has new insight? Or is he talking about pastors [or prophets] who are teaching false things?)
When this happens many turn to signs and wonders to validate their ministry. Its not truth that they have to give, but the power to display. (The author has it completely backwards.
1Co. 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.2 Tim.4:3 The time will come when they will not adhere to sound doctrine but according to their desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers, and they will turn away from the truth and be turned aside to fables.” Fables are all things beyond what is written in the word. (Again the author lacks clarity. Is he telling us that the only thing we are allowed to do is quote scripture? Everything else is going beyond the word? Like a pastor's preaching, for example, which always goes beyond the written word?)
Time is the enemy of a false prophet, so if one cannot discern from their conforming to scriptures, then they will certainly be able to tell by waiting to see if what was said will come to pass. In the New Testament, when the foundation of the faith was being laid down, a prophet saying “thus saith the Lord” would bring forth new revelations which in turn became our scripture. This is a strong reason why there are no more prophets today. (This is a bad reason. See our links above.
So finally the author clears up some confusion. But his statement is false on its face. Not every prophetic utterance became scripture, whether it's the OT or the NT. In fact, the author can point to no scripture that tells us that prophetic utterance = Scripture.)
Acts 13:1: “Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the holy spirit said “now separate unto me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Remember the NT. was still being written down and there was revelation given. The prophets here were Saul and Barnabas and more likely the others were the teachers mentioned. (??? The author attempts to dismiss the widespread nature of the prophetic.)
God is able and still does speak in various ways, yet he has chosen a more explicit but simple way to convey his message. It is by his son. Not just any Son but one who is God himself who delivered it in person. his words are written down so it can be understood equally to all. To change this or reject this method is to reject God. (An astonishing claim. To reject the author's doctrine is to reject God? Well, sir, we do reject your teaching on the matter. it is wrong.)
(...)
What we see is false prophets incorporate their own agenda. We find censoring the false prophets protects Gods (sic) people from harm, physically and spiritually. Anyone who allows people of this type of questionable ability to go for it in their church needs to question whether they are pleasing man or God. As a shepherd do they really care for the sheep or are for promoting their own ministry. We don’t read of any second chances for false predictions or an attitude of let bygones be bygones. The scripture does not allow to let prophets practice because practice makes perfect. (If we are to weigh prophecies [1Co. 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should
weigh carefully what is said.], then a possible result of that weighing is the prophecy is deemed inaccurate. Is the author suggesting that the first time someone inaccurately prophecies they should be forever silenced?)
There are no readjustments in their figures. Nor do we hear, lets see if any harm comes from what they say first before we judge. 2 Peter 1:19 says we have a more sure word of prophecy. No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. There seems to be a common denominator with all the new cults that disguise themselves as the original. (Unsupported assertion.)
They have new views on basic fundamental doctrines that have been accepted for almost 2,000 years it usually starts with the Lord told me or he appeared to me or I went to heaven. (Unsupported assertion.)
Sorry the job description has been filled your to (sic) late.
Hebrews 1:1 I tells us that God has spoken in times past to the fathers by the prophets in many various ways, but in these last days, He has spoken by His Son. Once the New Testament was completed, there was no longer a need for prophets to reveal God's will or new revelational knowledge. (Unsupported assertion.)
His Son's words are all we need. prophets are not a continuing position. (Unsupported assertion.)
However, we do have the gift of prophecy functioning for edification, consolation, and exhortation within the local church body. But this is never doctrine. Prophets are not sent, as in Old Testament times, to rebuke; rather the gift is to console and build us up. (Whaaaat? This is still "extra-biblical" revelation. The author just told us this was not allowed!)
God is able and still does speak in various ways yet he has chosen a more explicit but simple way to convey his message. It is by his son. Not just any son but one who is God himself to delivered it in person. To change this or reject this method is to reject God. As Jesus said he who receives you receives me and he who receives me receives the one who sent me, the father.
(...)
Today prophecy dos not have the same import that it did with the prophets to Israel.1 Cor. 14:3 “But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.”Ephesians 2:20 says that the church has been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Ephesians 3:5 reads that the mystery concerning the church has been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets through the Holy Spirit. The scriptures indicate that these roles were fulfilled in the first century, and do not continue today. (We found this to be quite false in the previous installment.)
Many believe the apostles were also the prophets and that they wrote the future down in scripture for us. ("Many believe?" What does this have to do with the matter at hand?)
Acts 13:32 names Judas and Silas as also being prophets. (And this matters why?)
Jude admonishes his readers to avoid false doctrines not by listening to the living prophets or apostles, but by recalling what the apostles already taught them in vs.17. (Let's quote the verse:
Jude 17-18 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”Jude actually tells us who he is talking about. Jude 4:
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.Do you see anything here about "living prophets or apostles" [whatever that means]? I am beginning to doubt the author's rationality.
We simply need to examine the Scriptures for ourselves to see the manifold errors of the author.)
The church today does not need new prophets and apostles today, just to listen more carefully to the old ones
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