Our comments in bold.
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This is an excerpt from the last of a four part series on why "continuationism" is not a secondary issue. In his four part series, the author does not quote a single Scripture. Not one. He does not present an affirmative biblical case for his beliefs at all.
His entire presentation of thousands of words consists solely of chronicling the present-day practices of charismatics. As we have noted numerous times previously, this technique has nothing to do with what the Bible says.
My four criteria for evaluating the claims of cessationists are that their arguments must be
- Biblically-based
- Not appeal to contemporary expressions of charismata
- Not appeal to silence
- Not appeal to events or practices of history
The excerpt below is troubling. He apparently believes it isn't necessary to quote Scripture. He doesn't even think he needs to make his case at all.
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You Never Proved Your Thesis from the Pages of Scripture
One final complaint was that I didn’t prove my ceassationist views from Scripture. Furthermore, I didn’t prove from Scripture why continuationism is NOT a secondary issue. In other words, I just offered my opinion and never substantiated my thesis biblically. I will admit that my focus wasn’t upon offering detailed, scriptural exegesis of ceassationism or continuationism. (Not only was it not his focus, it was completely absent.)
Continuationists, however, insist that signs and wonders are still active (Actually, it's that they believe these things should still be active...)
within the Christian church. That God has not ceased His supernatural activity and faithful Christians can still experience speaking in tongues, miraculous healings, and other divine manifestations of God’s wonder working power.
If signs and wonders level gifts are (should be) still happening as continuationists insist, and Christians should expect to see healings, speak in tongues, and receive personal prophesies on a regular, on-going basis, then it is incumbent upon continuationists to demonstrate their claim. I should not have to provide an exegesis of Scripture on that point. It is not on me, the ceassationist, (sic) to disprove their claim. (This is a startling assertion. The author is quite happy to spout his opinion, yet arrogantly claims he doesn't have to document it. He is implying that "continuationists" have never documented their claims. This of course is spectacularly false. There are many who have undertaken to establish the biblical basis for the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. Just in our blog alone there are more than 100 articles about this very thing.)
A few things need to fall into place.
First, if sign and wonder gifts continue for today, (The author cannot even characterize what we are talking about correctly. There is no such thing as "Sign and wonder gifts.")
we should expect them to operate according to the dictates of Scripture. (This is a violation of criteria 2. We should not expect the correct manifestations as evidence. We should expect the biblical case to be made, irrespective of what might be happening today.)
Specifically for the gift of tongues and prophesy. However, the overwhelming “manifestation” of just tongues is unbiblical. There is no church anywhere that practices the gift of tongues in the way Paul outlines in 1 Corinthians 14. (Again the author appeals to contemporary expression, which we have already deemed irrelevant to the biblical case. But he tacitly admits there is a proper way to practice them according to Scriptural dictates. So is there a biblical gift of tongues, or not?)
I’m sure someone may claim they know an obscure congregation that practices tongues in the way Paul says the gift must be practiced, but that is never the case. (!! I wonder how he knows this.)
Rather than repenting of such severe misuse of tongues and prophesy, continuationists revise the biblical text to accommodate tongues being mindless, repetitive gibberish and prophesy being fallible. (Examples? Documentation? Quotes?)
Secondly, signs and wonders would manifest in all Christian denominations. (Why? Why would the Holy Spirit move where He is not welcome? Why would there be manifestations where such manifestations are preached against, discouraged, and deemed heresy?
This claim makes absolutely no sense.)
The Holy Spirit is poured out on all of God’s people. He is the one who distributes the gifts individually as He wills, (1 Corinthians 12:11). That means tongues, healings, and other signs and wonders are not relegated to only continuationist friendly denominations. They would, without exception, be present within Baptist churches, Presbyterian churches, Lutheran churches, independent Bible churches, and any church where God’s people gather for worship. (Why? If a person stood in the author's church and spoke in tongues, what would happen to that person? Likely the leaders would move quickly to silence the offender, and perhaps even ask him to leave.
Paul counsels us to desire the greater gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. This means that the gifts are not automatic. They are sought, even though they are distributed by the Holy Spirit. Conversely, we can grieve or quench the Holy Spirit, and He will withdraw.
This means that the gifts are not going to manifest simply because the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh. Indeed, if we use the author's argument, shouldn't the spiritual gifts manifest in a strip club or Mormon church? All flesh means all flesh, after all.
And, it may surprise the author that many, if not most churches have parishioners who believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit and practice them, regardless of the doctrinal stance of that particular church. There are probably some right in his own church.
I would guess, however, that most of those people are very reluctant to express those gifts because of the reliably severe backlash that would await them.)
There would be no need to seek an anointing for those gifts; they would manifest as a work of the already present Holy Spirit. (Hmm. If so, why does Paul write, But eagerly desire the
greater gifts? 1Co. 12:31 And why did Jesus say, If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? Lk. 11:13
Clearly there is a need to "seek an anointing.")
But that never happens. (!! Again, how would he know this?)
And thirdly, acts of supernatural healing would be certain and undeniable to both believers and unbelievers. (Apparently the author has investigated and dismissed every claim of healing. But again, we are looking for the biblical case, apart from the contemporary expressions.)
They would not be hear-say legends emanating from that dark backwaters of third world jungles. When Peter healed the lame beggar in Acts 3, it was done publicly. The people who witnessed his post-healing were amazed (3:10). There was no doubt as to what happened. Everyone was awed by a man they knew was a crippled beggar. They weren’t skeptical, (An astoundingly false claim. Jesus Himself, having done the most amazing of miracles, was doubted.
Rather than going to Scripture to prove my thesis, my thesis could easily be refuted by a genuine move of the Spirit continuationists tell me is happening all the time. (Which the author summarily denies is happening without any attempt at investigation or refutation. But again, the author appeals to contemporary practices, not the Bible.
Before we close, we shall note that we quoted numerous Scriptures to document our claims. Surely we could trouble the author for at least one Scripture?)
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You Never Proved Your Thesis from the Pages of Scripture
One final complaint was that I didn’t prove my ceassationist views from Scripture. Furthermore, I didn’t prove from Scripture why continuationism is NOT a secondary issue. In other words, I just offered my opinion and never substantiated my thesis biblically. I will admit that my focus wasn’t upon offering detailed, scriptural exegesis of ceassationism or continuationism. (Not only was it not his focus, it was completely absent.)
Continuationists, however, insist that signs and wonders are still active (Actually, it's that they believe these things should still be active...)
within the Christian church. That God has not ceased His supernatural activity and faithful Christians can still experience speaking in tongues, miraculous healings, and other divine manifestations of God’s wonder working power.
If signs and wonders level gifts are (should be) still happening as continuationists insist, and Christians should expect to see healings, speak in tongues, and receive personal prophesies on a regular, on-going basis, then it is incumbent upon continuationists to demonstrate their claim. I should not have to provide an exegesis of Scripture on that point. It is not on me, the ceassationist, (sic) to disprove their claim. (This is a startling assertion. The author is quite happy to spout his opinion, yet arrogantly claims he doesn't have to document it. He is implying that "continuationists" have never documented their claims. This of course is spectacularly false. There are many who have undertaken to establish the biblical basis for the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. Just in our blog alone there are more than 100 articles about this very thing.)
A few things need to fall into place.
First, if sign and wonder gifts continue for today, (The author cannot even characterize what we are talking about correctly. There is no such thing as "Sign and wonder gifts.")
we should expect them to operate according to the dictates of Scripture. (This is a violation of criteria 2. We should not expect the correct manifestations as evidence. We should expect the biblical case to be made, irrespective of what might be happening today.)
Specifically for the gift of tongues and prophesy. However, the overwhelming “manifestation” of just tongues is unbiblical. There is no church anywhere that practices the gift of tongues in the way Paul outlines in 1 Corinthians 14. (Again the author appeals to contemporary expression, which we have already deemed irrelevant to the biblical case. But he tacitly admits there is a proper way to practice them according to Scriptural dictates. So is there a biblical gift of tongues, or not?)
I’m sure someone may claim they know an obscure congregation that practices tongues in the way Paul says the gift must be practiced, but that is never the case. (!! I wonder how he knows this.)
Rather than repenting of such severe misuse of tongues and prophesy, continuationists revise the biblical text to accommodate tongues being mindless, repetitive gibberish and prophesy being fallible. (Examples? Documentation? Quotes?)
Secondly, signs and wonders would manifest in all Christian denominations. (Why? Why would the Holy Spirit move where He is not welcome? Why would there be manifestations where such manifestations are preached against, discouraged, and deemed heresy?
This claim makes absolutely no sense.)
The Holy Spirit is poured out on all of God’s people. He is the one who distributes the gifts individually as He wills, (1 Corinthians 12:11). That means tongues, healings, and other signs and wonders are not relegated to only continuationist friendly denominations. They would, without exception, be present within Baptist churches, Presbyterian churches, Lutheran churches, independent Bible churches, and any church where God’s people gather for worship. (Why? If a person stood in the author's church and spoke in tongues, what would happen to that person? Likely the leaders would move quickly to silence the offender, and perhaps even ask him to leave.
Paul counsels us to desire the greater gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. This means that the gifts are not automatic. They are sought, even though they are distributed by the Holy Spirit. Conversely, we can grieve or quench the Holy Spirit, and He will withdraw.
This means that the gifts are not going to manifest simply because the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh. Indeed, if we use the author's argument, shouldn't the spiritual gifts manifest in a strip club or Mormon church? All flesh means all flesh, after all.
And, it may surprise the author that many, if not most churches have parishioners who believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit and practice them, regardless of the doctrinal stance of that particular church. There are probably some right in his own church.
I would guess, however, that most of those people are very reluctant to express those gifts because of the reliably severe backlash that would await them.)
There would be no need to seek an anointing for those gifts; they would manifest as a work of the already present Holy Spirit. (Hmm. If so, why does Paul write, But eagerly desire the
greater gifts? 1Co. 12:31 And why did Jesus say, If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? Lk. 11:13
Clearly there is a need to "seek an anointing.")
But that never happens. (!! Again, how would he know this?)
And thirdly, acts of supernatural healing would be certain and undeniable to both believers and unbelievers. (Apparently the author has investigated and dismissed every claim of healing. But again, we are looking for the biblical case, apart from the contemporary expressions.)
They would not be hear-say legends emanating from that dark backwaters of third world jungles. When Peter healed the lame beggar in Acts 3, it was done publicly. The people who witnessed his post-healing were amazed (3:10). There was no doubt as to what happened. Everyone was awed by a man they knew was a crippled beggar. They weren’t skeptical, (An astoundingly false claim. Jesus Himself, having done the most amazing of miracles, was doubted.
Jn. 7:48 Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?
Jn. 10:25-26 I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.As for the miracles performed in Acts, we read of these skeptics:
Ac. 14:2 But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Ac. 19:9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way.
Ac. 19:18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.
Ac. 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.nor did anyone attempt to debunk the healing. (Oh, my. Again we find that Jesus Himself was debunked:
Mt. 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."The author is astoundingly ignorant of Scripture.)
Rather than going to Scripture to prove my thesis, my thesis could easily be refuted by a genuine move of the Spirit continuationists tell me is happening all the time. (Which the author summarily denies is happening without any attempt at investigation or refutation. But again, the author appeals to contemporary practices, not the Bible.
Before we close, we shall note that we quoted numerous Scriptures to document our claims. Surely we could trouble the author for at least one Scripture?)
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