A conversation ensued:
Julie: Explain. I guess I am on holiday overload. Dismantling a sacred Nativity scene that is in Millions of homes every Christmas to make a point. Unreal.
Me: Julie, Joseph and Mary weren't refugees, they lived in Nazareth and were obligated to travel to Bethlehem for the census. Luke 2:4.
Scott: Nobody's "dismantling" anything, Julie. But by Biblical accounts, isn't it the case that the characters in the Nativity did NOT look like Ken and Barbie, but perhaps a bit more "ethnic" than often depicted, given the time and place where these events are said to have occurred? And though I'll be the first to admit my study of the Bible ended a LONG time ago, weren't Joseph and Mary fleeing the fear of Herod killing their son?
Again, I'm not a Christian and haven't read the Bible in 40+ years,. but rather than undermining the Christ story, I see it as reinforcing His message of love and compassion, which is something that even I, as a non-believer, happens to like about Christmas.
No offense was intended.
Me: They fled AFTER the nativity. But that doesn't make them refugees.
Scott: How so? How are they any less refugees than those fleeing war or famine or poverty? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your distinction.
Me: Apparently we are shifting points now that one error has been pointed out? Ok, fine.
"A refugee, according to the Geneva Convention on Refugees is a person who is outside their country of citizenship because they have well-founded grounds for fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, and is unable to obtain sanctuary from their home country." Notice that a refugee is without options. They cannot find sanctuary. But Joseph and Mary were not part of a persecuted group. They were simply assassination targets. Therefore, they were not refugees, they were exiles.
In Matt 2:13-15: "...an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. 'Get up,' he said, 'take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.' So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod."
So rather than being forced to leave Israel, they were told to leave by God, prior to any persecution.
Julie: Scott, you have made religious position very clear to many of us. I just didn't like the use of a sacred symbol of faith for many, many families across the Universe, that use this NATIVITY SCENE as a celebratory and religious symbol of the birth of a King. A baby, born in a stable, lying in a manger, to be a light in a dark world. Centuries later, this symbolic decoration, shrine or whatever is still part of a very HOLY SEASON. I was just sad that we have to resort to taking away from a Christian Holiday, that many non believers partake in, maybe for only one day a year, but to feel the peace and love and magic of Christmas with an open, tender heart. I am just having a hard time this year and this just hit me in a tender spot.
Me: Julie's feelings are perfectly understandable. Politicizing the nativity is clearly offensive.
Julie: Thanks Rich. I have been in a very emotional state and have even, slightly, begun to doubt my own response to issues. I found it truly troubling. Especially today, when wise men still SEEK HIM!
Me: Julie, Joseph and Mary weren't refugees, they lived in Nazareth and were obligated to travel to Bethlehem for the census. Luke 2:4.
Scott: Nobody's "dismantling" anything, Julie. But by Biblical accounts, isn't it the case that the characters in the Nativity did NOT look like Ken and Barbie, but perhaps a bit more "ethnic" than often depicted, given the time and place where these events are said to have occurred? And though I'll be the first to admit my study of the Bible ended a LONG time ago, weren't Joseph and Mary fleeing the fear of Herod killing their son?
Again, I'm not a Christian and haven't read the Bible in 40+ years,. but rather than undermining the Christ story, I see it as reinforcing His message of love and compassion, which is something that even I, as a non-believer, happens to like about Christmas.
No offense was intended.
Me: They fled AFTER the nativity. But that doesn't make them refugees.
Scott: How so? How are they any less refugees than those fleeing war or famine or poverty? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your distinction.
Me: Apparently we are shifting points now that one error has been pointed out? Ok, fine.
"A refugee, according to the Geneva Convention on Refugees is a person who is outside their country of citizenship because they have well-founded grounds for fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, and is unable to obtain sanctuary from their home country." Notice that a refugee is without options. They cannot find sanctuary. But Joseph and Mary were not part of a persecuted group. They were simply assassination targets. Therefore, they were not refugees, they were exiles.
In Matt 2:13-15: "...an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. 'Get up,' he said, 'take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.' So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod."
So rather than being forced to leave Israel, they were told to leave by God, prior to any persecution.
Julie: Scott, you have made religious position very clear to many of us. I just didn't like the use of a sacred symbol of faith for many, many families across the Universe, that use this NATIVITY SCENE as a celebratory and religious symbol of the birth of a King. A baby, born in a stable, lying in a manger, to be a light in a dark world. Centuries later, this symbolic decoration, shrine or whatever is still part of a very HOLY SEASON. I was just sad that we have to resort to taking away from a Christian Holiday, that many non believers partake in, maybe for only one day a year, but to feel the peace and love and magic of Christmas with an open, tender heart. I am just having a hard time this year and this just hit me in a tender spot.
Me: Julie's feelings are perfectly understandable. Politicizing the nativity is clearly offensive.
Julie: Thanks Rich. I have been in a very emotional state and have even, slightly, begun to doubt my own response to issues. I found it truly troubling. Especially today, when wise men still SEEK HIM!
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