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Originally posted December 23, 2016: (Apparently she is particularly proud of this one, enough so to repost it.)
During my years as a Charismatic, I remember using all sorts of Scriptures as proof-texts to validate whatever spiritual experience I happened to be practicing at the time. Most of the Charismatics I knew did the same thing to greater or lesser degrees. (We have previously set forth our requirements when considering the claims of cessationists. Any argument presented must
Originally posted December 23, 2016: (Apparently she is particularly proud of this one, enough so to repost it.)
During my years as a Charismatic, I remember using all sorts of Scriptures as proof-texts to validate whatever spiritual experience I happened to be practicing at the time. Most of the Charismatics I knew did the same thing to greater or lesser degrees. (We have previously set forth our requirements when considering the claims of cessationists. Any argument presented must
- be biblically based
- not appeal to contemporary expressions of other believers
- not appeal to silence
- not appeal to events or practices of history
The author's appeal to the present-day activities of charismatics is not a biblical argument.)
At Christmas time, Matthew’s nativity narrative gave me and my Charismatic friends excellent proof-texts to substantiate our claims that the Lord spoke to us personally. Three times in Matthew 1 and 2, the Lord sent Joseph dreams, in which He spoke very clearly to instruct Joseph. For example, look at God’s intervention when Joseph learned that his fiancee, Mary, was carrying a Child that he hadn’t fathered.
If we want "proof texts," we simply turn to Paul's counsel:
In the Old Testament, God spoke to prophets, or to people who would further the development of Israel (and the Messianic line). He didn’t speak to everyone in Israel, nor did He speak about inconsequential matters. He was building His nation, teaching them how to worship Him and to separate themselves from those who worshiped false gods and committed abominable sins.
Likewise, in the New Testament He spoke to apostles and prophets until His Word was written down by some of those same apostles and prophets. (As we have just seen, prophecy was widespread in the Church. It wasn't just apostles who were prophesying. Agabus, Philip's four daughters, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen, Saul, Judas, and Silas were all named as prophets.)
Those apostles and prophets, according to Ephesians 4:11-16, built the foundation of the Church by the revelations that the Holy Spirit gave them. That revelation (at least the revelation that we needed) has been preserved in the Bible’s canon.
The Lord spoke to Joseph because Joseph would serve as the legal father of Jesus, thus legitimizing His claim to David’s throne. In turn, this claim validated Jesus as the Messiah. Had Joseph divorced Mary, Jesus would not have had this legal claim. Therefore, God had to intervene by speaking directly to Joseph. (This was the only reason God spoke to Joseph, for legal reasons?)
Notice that His instruction that Joseph name the Child Jesus fulfilled prophecy.
God spoke two more times to Joseph (Matthew 2:13-15 and Matthew 2:19-23), both times to protect Jesus from an early death and, again, to fulfill prophecy. The Lord spoke to Joseph for specific purposes that resulted in Jesus growing to Manhood, demonstrating Himself to be God, dying on the cross to atone for the sin of those who would believe in Him and rising from the grave to break the power of sin. God’s words to Joseph held eternal consequences.
God’s words to Joseph were vastly different from the things that present-day evangelicals (particularly Charismatics) claim to receive. Joseph, like other key figures in Scripture, played a critical role in God’s plan of redemption. That being the case, 21st Century Christians need only the Bible in order to hear everything the Lord wants us to know.
Hebrews 1:1-2 says that, in these last days, God has spoken through His Son. Praise God He spoke to Joseph back then, so that we would have His Son’s Word for all eternity!
At Christmas time, Matthew’s nativity narrative gave me and my Charismatic friends excellent proof-texts to substantiate our claims that the Lord spoke to us personally. Three times in Matthew 1 and 2, the Lord sent Joseph dreams, in which He spoke very clearly to instruct Joseph. For example, look at God’s intervention when Joseph learned that his fiancee, Mary, was carrying a Child that he hadn’t fathered.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). 24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ~~Matthew 1:18-25 (ESV)Naturally, we concluded that, since the Lord spoke to Joseph, we had good reason to expect Him to speak to us in dreams, visions, still small voices or what have you. (No, we do not. This is not a "proof text." We simply acknowledge that God spoke to Joseph.
If we want "proof texts," we simply turn to Paul's counsel:
1Co. 12:7-10 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy...
1Co. 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
1Co. 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
1Ti. 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
1Th. 5:19-20 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt.)Our conclusion certainly seemed reasonable at the time, granted, but let’s think through a few points regarding who the Lord generally spoke to in Scripture and why He spoke to them.
In the Old Testament, God spoke to prophets, or to people who would further the development of Israel (and the Messianic line). He didn’t speak to everyone in Israel, nor did He speak about inconsequential matters. He was building His nation, teaching them how to worship Him and to separate themselves from those who worshiped false gods and committed abominable sins.
Likewise, in the New Testament He spoke to apostles and prophets until His Word was written down by some of those same apostles and prophets. (As we have just seen, prophecy was widespread in the Church. It wasn't just apostles who were prophesying. Agabus, Philip's four daughters, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen, Saul, Judas, and Silas were all named as prophets.)
Those apostles and prophets, according to Ephesians 4:11-16, built the foundation of the Church by the revelations that the Holy Spirit gave them. That revelation (at least the revelation that we needed) has been preserved in the Bible’s canon.
The Lord spoke to Joseph because Joseph would serve as the legal father of Jesus, thus legitimizing His claim to David’s throne. In turn, this claim validated Jesus as the Messiah. Had Joseph divorced Mary, Jesus would not have had this legal claim. Therefore, God had to intervene by speaking directly to Joseph. (This was the only reason God spoke to Joseph, for legal reasons?)
Notice that His instruction that Joseph name the Child Jesus fulfilled prophecy.
God spoke two more times to Joseph (Matthew 2:13-15 and Matthew 2:19-23), both times to protect Jesus from an early death and, again, to fulfill prophecy. The Lord spoke to Joseph for specific purposes that resulted in Jesus growing to Manhood, demonstrating Himself to be God, dying on the cross to atone for the sin of those who would believe in Him and rising from the grave to break the power of sin. God’s words to Joseph held eternal consequences.
God’s words to Joseph were vastly different from the things that present-day evangelicals (particularly Charismatics) claim to receive. Joseph, like other key figures in Scripture, played a critical role in God’s plan of redemption. That being the case, 21st Century Christians need only the Bible in order to hear everything the Lord wants us to know.
Hebrews 1:1-2 says that, in these last days, God has spoken through His Son. Praise God He spoke to Joseph back then, so that we would have His Son’s Word for all eternity!
Greetings Rich
ReplyDeleteYour four "requirements" hold no weight on whether or not something is true. The validity of the modern day charismatic narrative "can not" be based on scripture. Since the Bible is silent on "when" such things will cease (1 Cor. 13:8), your need for the "date" of cessation is an appeal to silence.
Also, charismatics appealing to claims of present day activities is not proof of their position. Especially since such evidence does not exist. In fact it has the opposite effect.
Your argument is nothing more than that of the flat-earth movement.
"Show me a scripture that states the earth is "not" flat! If you can not, then the world must be flat."
"Show me a scripture of "when" the age of the miraculous ended! If you can not, then we are still living in that age!"
Different subject, same logic.
Color me surprised. Here I thought you might actually offer an argument this time.
ReplyDelete"The validity of the modern day charismatic narrative 'can not' be based on scripture." Which is exactly what point two of my criteria says.
"Since the Bible is silent on 'when' such things will cease (1 Cor. 13:8), your need for the 'date' of cessation is an appeal to silence." Yes, it is SILENT about that. Which means it is SILENT about yours as well.
"Also, charismatics appealing to claims of present day activities is not proof of their position." Again you repeat my second point.
"Your argument is nothing more than that of the flat-earth movement." No, your argument is flat earth. See how easy it is to make baseless and unsubstantiated assertions?
I have written over 100 posts discussing the biblical basis for my doctrine. You have never offered a biblical critique of any of them.
Why do you bother posting comments? When are you going to offer a biblical explanation of your doctrines, or a biblical explanation of why you think I'm wrong? It can't be that hard, since I'm a biblical "flat earther," right?
Come on, Mr. Smith. Step up or shut up.
Greetings Rich.
ReplyDeletePlease forgive the long delay.
My labelling of your "requirements" as akin to flat-earth is quite accurate. Your demand for a biblical discourse on why we are not currently living in a miraculous or potentially miraculous age is the same reasoning as those who champion flat earth.
You: I will only accept biblically based answers. No appeals to any other reasoning will be accepted.
Flat-Earthers: "As a Christian, the flat earth begins and ends with Scriptures." (The Biblical Flat Earth: The Teaching From Scripture by Philip Stallings)
This is the error in your reasoning. You have set the goal post for fulfilling "your" requirements to an illogical height and mock those who are sensibly approaching the issue.
The Bible tells us that the miraculous will cease, it does not say when. Did it end at 400 AD, 500 AD or June 12, 1058? I do not know, the canon is closed. But it has ended. This is not a baseless assertion, it is our reality as much as the Earth is orbiting the Sun. And no lack of a Biblical discourse will change that.
You are a very intelligent writer and level headed Christian but on this issue you seem to be blind.
BTW
If you have written anything on the subject of modern day tithing I would be interested in reading it.
Again, no biblical argument. As far as I'm concerned, you're just making things up out of thin air.
ReplyDeleteWhen you are able to make your case from the Bible, you're welcome back. Otherwise, well, not.
Greetings Rich.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your prompt reply.
It seems we are at an impasse.
You see the answer of when the miraculous or potential miraculous ended or will end as contained within the pages of the Bible. An assumption much like those who claim to know the date of the return of Christ. When Christ returns there will be no debate, when the miraculous is upon us we will all know. No "biblical argument" necessary.
I see the issue as impossible to biblical answer since the canon is closed. Demanding to know the date of an event from a source written before the event happened is akin to searching for America on a Pre-Columbian map.
The validity of the cessationist articles you mock is not based on knowing the "date" of cessation but on the truth of the authors words as opposed to the claims of the continuationists. It is your four "requirements" that is being pulled out of thin air.
I haven't asked for a date. I've asked for the biblical case. So far in all of our exchanges, you have failed to quote a single scripture.
ReplyDeleteWe are not at an impasse, because you are not an honest interlocutor. You haven't offered a rebuttal.
Greetings Rich.
ReplyDeleteAgain thank you for your prompt reply.
The impasse is not the date but your self-imposed requirement for a biblical case to an event that happened after the Bible was written. Any demand for a biblical discourse on this issue past the confines of 1st Corinthians 13:8-10 is an appeal to silence.
Your doctrine is a house of cards, built on a simple notion that without a clear verse on when the age of the miraculous ended, anything goes.
Rich, you are the dishonest debater. Insisting on a criteria that forces common sense and reason out of the realm of dissussion.
Mr. Smith.
ReplyDeleteSomething that "happened after the Bible" is not a doctrine, it's wishful thinking.
Are you in junior high? I make a criticism of your position, and you simply repeat it back to me as an accusation.
1st Corinthians 13:8-10 does not teach anything that defends your position. You may wish to review my rather detailed examination of this passage. https://mountainmantrails.blogspot.com/2016/07/cessationism-episode-one-introduction.html
Don't comment here anymore. Unless you are willing to refute what I've written with a biblical defense. I have had enough. You will be spammed unless you are willing to talk about what the Bible says.