B.S.: Hell as in the lake of fire (gehenna as Jesus called it)has not been set up yet, right now sheol a place of darkness and torture is where fallen angels and non believers are awaiting judgment. Not until the great white throne judgement where Satan will be the first one cast into the lake of fire will the eternal hell be established.
Me: What Scripture says that hell will be established at that time? And if dead non-believers are already being tormented (Tartaroo), then it sounds like they've already been judged?
B.S.: 2 Peter 2:4 ESV
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Revelation 20:10-15 ESV
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Me: Great Scriptures. But you didn't answer either of my questions. Sorry, I don't mean to be contentious.
B.S.: Both scriptures seem pretty clear that judgment is future, after the thousand year reign. Not sure what your argument is, or why these scriptures don't prove that torment is not eternal hell.
Me: At the risk of being deemed argumentative, I'll repeat my questions: 1) Could you please identify the Scripture that says hell will be established later? 2) And if dead non-believers are presently being tortured, then have they not been judged already? I'm not sure why you mentioned torment being eternal hell, because I did not ask you about that.
B.S.: Ok, I'll give you my answer but to go into it more I feel we need to talk in person.
1) Hell as Jesus described it is eternal torment. Eternal is forever, and this literal eternal judgment is described in the verses I mentioned before as being established for the first time after Jesus comes to reign in a thousand year period.
2) dead non-believers would fall in the same category as fallen angels described in the verse in Peter as being held until judgment comes.
3) the reason I mention that is because you are relating torment to judgment.
Hope this clarifies, but to talk further I would rather talk in person, to keep from misunderstanding.
Me: Never mind. You don't have to answer if you don't want to or don't know. I'm fine with that.
B.S.: I want to, I'm just not sure if we are understanding each other.
B.S.: Ok Rich, after that last comment (don't know) I can't resist.
1)Are you trying to say Hell is already established or are you looking for those words to come from scripture?
2)What scriptures are you basing that off of?
3)What scriptures say that the dead are being judged now?
Me: I didn't mean to insult you, I was simply trying to account for your unwillingness to directly answer. Sorry. I was asking you to give Scriptural support for the statement in your sermon. I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that indicates when hell was created.
When you said that "sheol a place of darkness and torture is where fallen angels and non believers are awaiting judgment," that sounds to me like a judgment has already taken place. Otherwise, why would God punish people? How could he do so without judging them?
B.S.: Hell as described by Jesus is a lake of fire (ghenna), right now if there is a lake of fire it is not being used for judgement. The lake of fire is reserved for after judgment that comes at the establishment of the eternal reign of Christ. Beginning with the great white throne judgement.
B.S.: Hell as described by Jesus is a lake of fire (ghenna), right now if there is a lake of fire it is not being used for judgement. The lake of fire is reserved for after judgment that comes at the establishment of the eternal reign of Christ. Beginning with the great white throne judgement.
As to if Sheol is a place for those that have already been judged, I don't know? Your interpetation?
2 Peter 2:4 ESV
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Seems to me that scripture is saying they are being kept until judgement.
I feel that my scriptural support in Revelation 20 is my basis for what I used in my sermon.
I guess if you feel that is not support, than I don't know what you are looking for.
My point was that Satan is not currently in Hell, that He is prowling around like a roaring lion.
Again I ask you if you are opposed to my defense, prove to me from scripture that Hell as in eternal judgment is not a future event. If you can tell me how I was wrong in saying what I said then do so, and I will publicly acknowledge my wrong in what I said.
Me: Easy, my friend. It's hard enough to preach sermons every week and not say something that someone takes issue with, let alone having to make a public correction every time.
I haven't actually taken a position yet with you, so let me do so now. First, Scripture does not tell us if hell is set up yet, so we should be reluctant to make any statement at all about that. So my response is, since Scripture doesn't say, I don't know.
Second, we should be interested in clarity regarding the critical issues of the Gospel, salvation, and the nature of God. I think that the issue of the intricacies of hell/Hades/Tartarus/ Gehenna/sheol might be an interesting study, perhaps, but I don't think it is necessarily profitable for the the advancement of the Kingdom or for living a holy, victorious life in the Spirit.
Third, we tend to view the things of God in a linear fashion, according to our Western cultural and intellectual mindset. However, God is not linear, binary, or subject to our logic. The Hebrew mind can hold two seemingly contradictory things at the same time without the need to reconcile them. This means the issue of when hell is created is not subject to linear time.
Now we are going deeper than I want to, sorry. Suffice to say, for the God we worship, who is not subject to to constraints of time as the Beginning and the End, the beginning of hell probably doesn't mean much.
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Seems to me that scripture is saying they are being kept until judgement.
I feel that my scriptural support in Revelation 20 is my basis for what I used in my sermon.
I guess if you feel that is not support, than I don't know what you are looking for.
My point was that Satan is not currently in Hell, that He is prowling around like a roaring lion.
Again I ask you if you are opposed to my defense, prove to me from scripture that Hell as in eternal judgment is not a future event. If you can tell me how I was wrong in saying what I said then do so, and I will publicly acknowledge my wrong in what I said.
Me: Easy, my friend. It's hard enough to preach sermons every week and not say something that someone takes issue with, let alone having to make a public correction every time.
I haven't actually taken a position yet with you, so let me do so now. First, Scripture does not tell us if hell is set up yet, so we should be reluctant to make any statement at all about that. So my response is, since Scripture doesn't say, I don't know.
Second, we should be interested in clarity regarding the critical issues of the Gospel, salvation, and the nature of God. I think that the issue of the intricacies of hell/Hades/Tartarus/ Gehenna/sheol might be an interesting study, perhaps, but I don't think it is necessarily profitable for the the advancement of the Kingdom or for living a holy, victorious life in the Spirit.
Third, we tend to view the things of God in a linear fashion, according to our Western cultural and intellectual mindset. However, God is not linear, binary, or subject to our logic. The Hebrew mind can hold two seemingly contradictory things at the same time without the need to reconcile them. This means the issue of when hell is created is not subject to linear time.
Now we are going deeper than I want to, sorry. Suffice to say, for the God we worship, who is not subject to to constraints of time as the Beginning and the End, the beginning of hell probably doesn't mean much.
No comments:
Post a Comment