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Friday, August 10, 2012

Does God Hate - revisited, FB conversation

A FB friend posted this:

E.J.: Do you think Jesus put stipulations on loving? Cause sometimes it feels like most people have a hard time loving with the same love Jesus had and has if He hasn't. We paint Jesus with that same brush and think we are being acurate. I really need to learn more about love from the Master. Praying for all those areas that need love in your life, even the hidden unsaid places and needs. May you feel a real, tangiable touch from your heavenly Father and friend this week. Love you! Or at least doing my best...;-)

Me: He certainly did put stipulations on loving. God does not love everyone.

M.S.: ‎@Rich: God does not love everyone??? Who are you saying is excluded??

Me: Tell me what you think of Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, Prov 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15, and Mal 1:2-3.

M.S.: By referencing those verses, it sounds like you're trying to prove that God doesn't love people who sin. We obviously know that that's not true, because if it were, Jesus would never have come, and no one on earth would be saved. "But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were STILL sinners." Romans 5:8

In the Malachi verse, when it says God "hated Esau," it's referring to God choosing Jacob over Esau. It doesn't mean He had no love for Esau, it means Jacob had more favor.

Likewise, in Luke 14:26, when Jesus tells people that in order to follow Him they must "hate their father and mother," etc., he is certainly not telling people to HATE their families, he's telling them to "love their families LESS" than they love God.

The bottom line is the translation. In English they've used "hate," but in the original language and context, it meant other things like, "non-election," "love less," or "rejected."

Me: Just so you know my motives, my intent is not to create a dispute, nor to suggest that you are wrong. I want to discuss issues of faith and belief and in so doing develop a more informed understanding. Especially for me!

I am not trying to prove God doesn't love people who sin. Clearly He does. But he also hates. That is what the Word says, right? Looking up Strong's, it's the same word (8804, to hate, be hateful) used in all cases. The original reference to Esau, which is Gen 27:41 (8799, to hate, oppose oneself to, bear a grudge, retain animosity against, cherish animosity against) is a different word.

Me: In Romans 9:13, Paul quotes the verse about Esau (3404, to hate, pursue with hatred, detest).

It is interesting what Paul goes on to say: "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'” Clearly he is writing this to refute someone's errant idea about the nature of God.

Me: So, I'm not so sure I understand God's nature all that well. You might have some better ideas, which is exactly why I posted here.

M.S.: I don't doubt that God hates, I'm just saying that He hates sin.... and not people. Which, if I understand E.J. correctly, is what he was referring to: Jesus not putting stipulations on loving 'people'.... right?

Me: It's an open question for me. I risk trying to force God into a preconception, and one thing I have discovered is that some of the things I believe about God are faulty, something believed because it's what's taught.

1) God loves the world.
2) God hates sin.
3) Is God's love and hate like human love and hate?
4) Do the Scriptures identify people whom He hates, and if so, does that automatically contradict #1?
5) Do the Scriptures ever express a thought like "love the person, hate the sin" or something similar?
6) Is this an "either/or," or can God both love someone and hate them?

These are questions I am considering. I just don't accept the traditional explanations as easily as I used to.

Me: My responsibility, of course, is a different issue. I must love. No exceptions.



E.J.: ‎1 John 4:7-11 NKJV "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."

God is love. Not sure it could be said much simpler. If we find out there is anything in Gods that isn't love, we are all in some serious trouble. Jesus said when we saw Him, we could see the Father. Jesus revealed what He was like. Not sure why anyone would want to argue anything else. Without love we are nothing.

E.J.: As a side not we don't hate other peoples sin, sin is Gods responsiblity not ours. I can hate my own sin and pursue the fullness that is promised. But to take on the responsiblity of hating someones sin says that I am a judge. Our love is like God's, because I love with His love. Hate in the right context can look like Gods hate. I hate the sex trade, I don't point the finger at an individual but rather hate the atrocity done to Gods beloved. I fight for Gods Kingdom to come into the realm everyday by doing my best to be a living sacrifice, it may not look like anyone elses life, but it isn't supposed to. If God does hate, how does that benefit Him? If hate is divine, sacred, and holy, why aren't we instructed to do so?

E.J.: Hate in the context of hating people or person. Not just hating sin. Rich, you are awesome. Hope what I said isn't to mainstream.lol If you can, maybe let know why your coming from that angle. LOVE YOU!:-)

Me: How does it benefit Him? Good question. Great are the mysteries of God. He has put these and other Scriptures in to reveal Himself. It is up to us to rightly discern His character by His Holy Spirit. I think we get a glimpse of His holiness. I would be reluctant to simply dismiss an aspect of His revelation simply because I don't understand. We need to be sure that we aren't defining Him by our human understandings.

Me: I love to bring these kinds of things before wise men and women like you all so that we might rightly regard this God we worship.

M.S.: E.J., interesting..... I've never heard anyone say we shouldn't hate other people's sin. Can you elaborate?

T.N.: The discussion is an issue of "election" and "predestination." No one can deny those words that are repeatedly used in the New Testament, especially. Does God love "everyone" or just the Elect? Who are the Elect? The ones Jesus died for, or for everyone? Would He die for people He knows won't ultimately turn to Him anyway?

T.N.: I used to think God loves "everyone," but after reading ALL of the Bible, and reading it in CONTEXT, I'm not so sure about that anymore. My understanding is limited, at best, but I cannot deny what I read. It is His own words about Himself.

T.N.: I haven't heard that either, M.S.. Contrarily, we are repeatedly told to be on guard, to discern, to use wise JUDGEMENT, to rebuke, to correct, to stay far from those who refuse to submit & obey God's Word, etc., etc. It is a very nice thing to say, for sure, "love the sinner, hate the sin," but that is simply not Biblical. It's a hobbling together of out-of-context Scriptures to make a pleasing statement. And it's dangerous, ultimately, on many levels to many people...

Me: Mmm, good stuff y'all.

E.J.: If God's doesn't love me or my friend or brother or cousin, then there is nothing to live for. How do you know that I am one of those that His doesn't love? Just because I am not a twin doesn't mean God couldn't choose to hate me and not love me. What scripture says God doesn't love everyone? God so loved the world...there are scriptures that can show with out a doubt that God loves and is love, I can prove Gods love, not sure you can prove He doesn't.

Me: Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, Prov 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15, and Mal 1:2-3 all talk about God hating specific people or groups of people. Not just their practices, not just their sin, but them.

How do you know? Basic Christianity: 1 Jn. 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death."

It is one thing to say "God is love." It is quite another to say, "God is nothing but love." The first is true, the second is false.

E.J.: What does that mean? God is love but to say He is nothing but love.

Matthew 5:48 NKJV

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

God is perfection, and we are to be like Him. As a father should I emulate that part of God and hate my kids and friends and family when they screw up. Because if it's Gods MO to hate those in disobedience and sin than I guess I should. I can love and hate at the same time and still be love. I was made in Gods likeness, hate must be right. Verses like "while they were still sinners" no longer carry the weight they used to. The bible is so vast and says things that are a mystery for sure, and you can make the bible say whatever you want. My Father loves everyone, even sinners. Esau was not sin in it's purest form, he was a good son who loved, yet it still says God hated him, so again, how do I know God doesn't hate me. I am a good son and I love, but is that what qualifies me to be loved? I am not so sure.

Me: Others to consider:
Jn. 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

Ro. 2:8 "But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

Ro. 9:22 "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction?"

Ro. 12:19 "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord."

Me: We cannot understand God's love without understanding his wrath.

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